Tom Curran speculates on if Mac Jones will get Downgraded to third string

[Steve102]

Also, how dare you try to stand where Tom Brady stood.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Yes the QB is near the bottom of the league. The offensive line is in fact worse by virtually every metric. This is one of the bottom tier WR sets in terms of production and separation. The RB's are near the bottom of the league in terms of production. Aside from run stopping the defense is sub 20th ranked in virtually every stat. The special teams has consistently been hovering between worst and bottom three since the start of the year. It's just insane to look at all that and blame the QB.

And despite all of this, they've still been competitive in most of their losses. (I think we should also note that they're getting hosed by the refs almost every week, too.)

In particular, the problem with the OL is that they were beset with injuries across the board at the same time during TC, and the injuries have continued into the season. This is pure speculation on my part, but I honestly think that Mac's INT happened in no small part because our favorite turnstile had to enter the game.

 

[Pats1971]

Mac was also the QB last year. So he wasn't a variable that changed on that offense that was better.

The reality is the biggest differences on this offense from last year are that we lost our best WR, we lost a solid RB, and the line is peforming substantially worse.. Statistically Mac has been about the same. He's on pace for more TD's and INT's together. But he's also passing at a higher rate and has about the same completion percentage. There's only really a marginal difference in passer rating and average right now.

Really Mac is a problem, but he's not the reason the team is worse this year than last year. The talent downgrade is the biggest culprit overall. You pack that in with a worse performing defense and special teams and it's really no surprise a middling team last year is a bottomfeeder this year.

It's more accurate to say that Mac is a mediocre QB that is surrounded by bad talent which somehow got worse and the OC change couldn't compensate for that (BOB is a bit overrated anyways). Switching QB wasn't going to save this season though. Like maybe we go to a 6 win team or something and win some of the closer ones. But this is a bad team any way you slice it and the primary problem right now is the lack of talent and execution in all three phases. Which isn't suprising. Many of us were ringing that bell in the off season. I don't know why anyone expected this team to do much better. People might have been hoping Mac would take a step up, but you almost never see a QB take the next step when they lose talent on the offense. Manning took the next step when they paired Wayne with Harrison, Brady did it with Moss and Welker, Allen did it with Diggs, Rodgers did it when Jordy Nelson finally developed into a premier back, Tua did it with Hill and Waddle getting added. You just almost never see a QB who is developing take a downgrade on offensive talent and then become better. Usually what happens is they get a big upgrade and it gives them a cushion to be more aggressive and it grows their confidence.

But the offense isn't worse this year because of Mac. He's really no different.

Here is the thing, and good post by the way. I disagree with some of it, but who cares about that. The thing with Mac from what I can see is, he doesnt make players around him better. I dont care how bad an offense is, if you insert some QB's, it will get better and they will enhance what they are. Mac does not do that. Now is that because he is a bad leader? Or is it because of him QB skills? I dont know, all QB's do it different ways, but, coaches are not dumb, they know what we have and dont have, but they can still see things in QB's that set them apart. I dont think they are seeing that with Mac. Is this offense as bad as people say it is? Probably not, is it made worse when you have a bad QB, yeah it will be.

I have watched too many times a stalled offense make a QB change and all of the sudden, things start moving. I have seen this hundreds of times. For some reason in this case, some people want to just say basically Mac is amazing and the team is making him look bad and others will say Mac is **** and it doesnt matter about the team. Neither is correct. Mac is not a good QB, he has bad mechanics, he doesnt have a great arm, he makes bad decisions, he isnt consistent. Now if I go out and get a good receiver next year, is he now a good QB? No. It might add some points, it might have a few more drives actually go past the 50, maybe, but you are always going to be limited.

The idea of hey if we add this and this, then Mac can be a pro bowler, no. A QB is good because they are good or they are bad because they are bad. Whats around them might make something go up or down, but it does not change what they are. In 20 years, we watched hundreds of players come in and out of the offense on the pats, and they kept winning. Now sometimes it was 14-2 juggernaut and sometimes it was 11-5 nt make it to superbowl, but Brady didnt get worse or better, he was just Brady, he made the best of what was there and made what was there better. Mac has not shown the ability to do that. There are many things wrong with his game, and saying oh its because of this on the team and then he will be good, is false. He would have to become better or nothing will ever be good enough to win much.


Now from an actual real fact of what the offense is. The oline has some inconsistency, its not off the wall terrible, but its not great. They are ranked 14th in pass protection from a grading standpoint, so basically in the middle. There are teams who move the ball with worse olines from that standpoint. A good QB with good awareness and pre snap reads, and pocket presence, would make this oline better. Receivers. Not an all star bunch but enough good to just say they are the whole problem. They have two very good TE's that get seperation, get open and catch the ball as good as its been since Gronk, this from a grade standpoint. Hunter was damn good on another team. The receivers vary on seperation, but its not near worst in the league right now. People scream about drops like its a constant. Right now the pats are 22nd in drops, meaning, 21 teams in the league have more drops. That is not a problem, its just highlighted because everyone that has happened gets talked about like its the reason Mac is not good. Its silly and false


Finally. Mac is not a mentally strong QB. He is a bit fragile. He seems to get upset very easy, he seems to go behind peoples back to gripe about stuff, he seems to not hide very well his issues with things. He at this point does not seem like he handles adversity at all, which translates to, in big game situations, can he stay mentally strong and lead the team? I dont think he can.

With all that said, I have no idea what he will be, what will change with him and what he could turn into. But right now, the idea of just going out and spending a ton of money to try and make him serviceable is probably not the best track of success. QB's have to adjust and adapt to what is around them and make that better, and then you add parts to get more plays and make the team better.

Anyway, thats my take. At this point I dont think he is the guy and its more than his physical tools as to why.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

I don't get the "flowery and dramatic" thing, but laugh all you want. At least unlike you I presented it as conjecture and not fact.

Yes you are right. Always right. You and Andy always do the best posts.

 

[sb1]

The thing with Mac from what I can see is, he doesnt make players around him better. I dont care how bad an offense is, if you insert some QB's, it will get better and they will enhance what they are. Mac does not do that. Now is that because he is a bad leader? Or is it because of him QB skills? I dont know, all QB's do it different ways, but, coaches are not dumb, they know what we have and dont have, but they can still see things in QB's that set them apart. I dont think they are seeing that with Mac. Is this offense as bad as people say it is? Probably not, is it made worse when you have a bad QB, yeah it will be.

I don't think Mac is a good leader or at least not at this point in time. It's his team that always seems to talk him up to the media not the other way around.

He's not the guy. Hopefully they find him this spring. It might be a long time.

 

[h0c2000]

Now we’re saying Patricia wasn’t that bad?

lol. That is all.

Don't you mean 3x Super Bowl Champion Coach Fat Matty P?

 

[Tunescribe]

I think Patricia sucked, but I no longer think that Patricia sucking had nearly as much to do with Mac sucking as I did previously. I also have started to believe that Bill, Patricia and Judge had the right idea in 2022 simplifying things for Mac and just having him focus on running the play as designed and going through his reads - the problem being that the play design was absolutely awful, and Patricia was a bad playcaller. But the concept of simplifying things for Mac was probably wise, and it certainly made sense for other players on the roster who had a lot less to learn.

But Mac blamed this simplification for his poor performance and many fans said "he's a cerebral QB, you took away his best skill!" Mac was calling people outside the organization for "tips and tricks" about offense... Obviously Kraft bought it. They went back to the more complicated system with BOB, which gives Mac a lot more to think about and also his receivers. Harder to learn for everyone. Mac is clearly in his own head more than he was last year which can't help things at all. I think BOB's play design and playcalling have been better, but the overall offensive execution has been worse, because it's more complicated and the players aren't executing it well. Whereas the players were typically executing well last year, but they were executing ****ty calls.

The right fit for Mac is probably a simplified system where he doesn't have much to think about and the playcaller is not an idiot. But the outcome of that probably still is not that good, because even then you're just left with a QB that does not have much in the way of physical tools... Purdy-extra-lite, maybe.

I think you've got this the other way around, Ross. The system was simplified for Patricia, not the players. Patricia was a defensive guy who couldn't decipher and apply McDaniels' accumulated years of Brady era-refined hieroglyphs.

Mac's strength ostensibly is/was pre-snap processing. That was taken away from him last season and returned this year. The problem this year is he hasn't made hay with it -- partly from bad protection and poor weapons, partly from his own inability to adjust accordingly and also due to limited physicality.

The more I think about this, Mac's limited strength and athleticism -- lack of sheer arm strength and being capable of improvising on the run -- are glaring deficiencies. Otherwise he'd be able to somewhat compensate for ongoing problems with his surrounding cast. The bottom line is he's adequate in systems like McDaniels'/BOB's IF protection is consistent and he has dependable weapons to work with. He just isn't a difference-maker on his own when necessary, like a franchise quarterback should be.

 

[203Pat]

 

[condon84]

I have been chasing this same line of thinking for a few weeks too. I firmly believe Kraft handcuffed Bill with Mac and forced BOB on him because Mac convinced him that Patricia “screwed everything up” and if they just brought BOB in and went back to the old scheme then everything would be perfect again. Bill said that definitely won’t happen, Kraft said do it. So Bill said well, I’m not spending a ton of resources on what will probably be a **** year. Lo and behold Mac still sucked, Patricia didn’t **** up his mechanics or make him forget how to see pressure or go through his reads. Mac is just bad.

This would explain why BB stuck with Mac for so long even after trash performance after trash performance.

 

[Pats1971]

I don't think Mac is a good leader or at least not at this point in time. It's his team that always seems to talk him up to the media not the other way around.

He's not the guy. Hopefully they find him this spring. It might be a long time

I don't think Mac is a good leader or at least not at this point in time. It's his team that always seems to talk him up to the media not the other way around.

He's not the guy. Hopefully they find him this spring. It might be a long time.

You can never use what players on the team say about another player in cases like this. Until he is no longer on the team, they will never ever say anything bad about them. If you ask them if the QB does this well, they will say yes. Its just how it goes.

 

[Pats1971]

I think you've got this the other way around, Ross. The system was simplified for Patricia, not the players. Patricia was a defensive guy who couldn't decipher and apply McDaniels' accumulated years of Brady era-refined hieroglyphs.

Mac's strength ostensibly is/was pre-snap processing. That was taken away from him last season and returned this year. The problem this year is he hasn't made hay with it -- partly from bad protection and poor weapons, partly from his own inability to adjust accordingly and also due to limited physicality.

The more I think about this, Mac's limited strength and athleticism -- lack of sheer arm strength and being capable of improvising on the run -- are glaring deficiencies. Otherwise he'd be able to somewhat compensate for ongoing problems with his surrounding cast. The bottom line is he's adequate in systems like McDaniels'/BOB's IF protection is consistent and he has dependable weapons to work with. He just isn't a difference-maker on his own when necessary, like a franchise quarterback should be.

I dont care how bad an offense is, A good Qb will make it better. He isnt. The offense is not near as bad as people make it out to be, but its going to look worse with a bad QB. If Mac throws a td on that last play to a wide open TE , people will say, wow what a great route, what a great playcall, what a great throw. But now, the route isnt talked about the playcall isnt talked about, the horrid throw is. So with just making a simple pass, you enhanced the playcalling and the TE, with a bad throw you enhanced nothing.

 

[sb1]

You can never use what players on the team say about another player in cases like this. Until he is no longer on the team, they will never ever say anything bad about them. If you ask them if the QB does this well, they will say yes. Its just how it goes.

True but I get the sense that his teammates just don't look up to him right now. A leader would take charge on the team and in the media. Maybe it's his subpar play on the field or maybe it's something else. He just seems out of his element as a leader. A franchise QB is a leader.

With Brady there was no question at all who was in charge.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Hope for what?

Hope for identifying a decent QB for the future, even if we don't pick in the top 3.

 

[Pats1971]

True but I get the sense that his teammates just don't look up to him right now. A leader would take charge on the team and in the media. Maybe it's his subpar play on the field or maybe it's something else. He just seems out of his element as a leader. A franchise QB is a leader.

With Brady there was no question at all who was in charge.

Yeah I do not think so either. One glaring issue I see and I dont really hear any media talk about is, I think Mac is not very mentally strong. He does not seem like he handles advirsity very well. Things have to be great around him and then he is ok, and that is just not a reality in the NFL. How great you are is defined by what you do when things are not good, that is what seperates the good from the great. At least at this point, he has not shown he can rise up and make things happen or give them hope.

 

[203Pat]

I dont care how bad an offense is, A good Qb will make it better. He isnt. The offense is not near as bad as people make it out to be, but its going to look worse with a bad QB. If Mac throws a td on that last play to a wide open TE , people will say, wow what a great route, what a great playcall, what a great throw. But now, the route isnt talked about the playcall isnt talked about, the horrid throw is. So with just making a simple pass, you enhanced the playcalling and the TE, with a bad throw you enhanced nothing.

This has been my thing. The offense is bad. The receivers are bad. The offensive line has been inconsistent. That is all true. But I think with an adequate QB they could be below average and with a great QB you could say theyre an average or "pedestrian" group. Mac is Brady in reverse. Instead of dragging a bunch of JAGs like Chris Hogan, Brandon Lafell, Jabar Gaffney, Reche Caldwell, etc to AFCCGs and super bowls Mac makes JAGS like Parker, Juju, Jonnu look like absolute dumpster fires. Granted Brady is the greatest player to ever play the position and it is unfair to ask Mac to be anything close to Brady but Mac still needs to elevate the guys around him to some extent.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

Bob and Jonathan come to the realization that Mac is a BUST.

Looks like Bob stole George Costanzas coat.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

So he knows QBs but seems to have almost no clue whatsoever on WRs?

I am not sure BB is a draft guru. I think it is different for drafting and evaluating talent on the field. BB evaluates on field talent and fit well, but has not been great in the draft (not awful either, some good and some bad). I think QB or WR or any position has similar results. BB is much better at FA than the draft.

 

[Pats1971]

This has been my thing. The offense is bad. The receivers are bad. The offensive line has been inconsistent. That is all true. But I think with an adequate QB they could be below average and with a great QB you could say theyre an average or "pedestrian" group. Mac is Brady in reverse. Instead of dragging a bunch of JAGs like Chris Hogan, Brandon Lafell, Jabar Gaffney, Reche Caldwell, etc to AFCCGs and super bowls Mac makes JAGS like Parker, Juju, Jonnu look like absolute dumpster fires. Granted Brady is the greatest player to ever play the position and it is unfair to ask Mac to be anything close to Brady but Mac still needs to elevate the guys around him to some extent.

Exactly, I mean look, believe it or not, in the 20 years of players coming and going and coaches coming and going and injuries etc. The patriots were not just a loaded super team from 2001 to 2019. But the difference is, when the players are bad, they were 10-6, not 2-8 and that is the difference. I honestly have zero clue how the pats went to the 2011 superbowl with those receivers or the afc title game in 2006.

 

[venecol]

No it really shouldn't be better. Meyers was the best WR on the team. He is gone. Harris was one of the top two RB's. He is gone. The other RB in Stevenson has been a huge downgrade. The replacement WR in Juju has been a huge downgrade. The offensive line is at the bottom of the league. You want to see what an extremely bad offensive line does to a great QB, look at Patrick Mahomes in Super Bowl 55. Dude fought like a hero and still had the worst game of his career and got trounced badly AND he actually had great players to pass to.

There was absolutely zero reason to think this offense was going to better than last year unless you bought into the hype of BOB being some magic fix all. BOB maybe can run a good offense when prime Brady, Gronk, Welker, Hernandez, Ridley, Green Ellis, Vereen, Woodhead, Mankins, Vollmer, Light, Solder, Cannon and Connoly on it. But this ain't it and it never was.

Yeah Mac has not developed. That's on the team though. This fanbase used to mock the Jets for years for doing similar to their QB's. And this about as bad as I've ever seen the Jets do it. People just want a conveniant excuse because they can't blame the organization because then they have to face the depths of the problems.

And that's just the offense. Let's be real, the special teams is near the botom of the league right now and the defense despite a decent game against a crap Colts team has routinely been bottom third. It's a total failure across the board.

Yes the QB is near the bottom of the league. The offensive line is in fact worse by virtually every metric. This is one of the bottom tier WR sets in terms of production and separation. The RB's are near the bottom of the league in terms of production. Aside from run stopping the defense is sub 20th ranked in virtually every stat. The special teams has consistently been hovering between worst and bottom three since the start of the year. It's just insane to look at all that and blame the QB.

As far as development, you can look at how every great QB ended up developing. The Patriots simply have not done that for their QB. It's not a surprise what the result was. It's easier to blame one guy over the whole organization.

Spot on. It's an organizational failure. Responsibility for team regressing and flat out sucking ass in 2023:

Bill Belichick: 85%
Corky Jones: 10%
Injuries: 5%

Kraft needs to hold Bill responsible for this mess after drafting a QB1 in Rd 1 and spending a record amount of $ in FAcy just 2 seasons ago:

1. Instruct Bill not to win another ****ing game.
2. Can Bill's ass on Black Monday.
3. Go find the best GM money can buy (whatever it takes).
4. Let GM find offensive minded HC.
5. Decide what to do w/ Corky (but DO NOT sign 5th yr option).
6. Draft a top QB w/ 3rd (hopefully 2nd pick).
7. Start a new era of Patriots Nation.

I'm excited for the future.

 

[Ross12]

Not shocking. It must have been insanely frustrating against the Colts to be getting to the red zone, everyone doing their jobs, get wide open for a TD and then Mac throws a pick for NO REASON at all instead. Plus multiple other plays where he came within inches of throwing a pick for no reason but the defense didn't make the play. Scoring only 6 points is inexcusable. It's just ridiculous and sheer stupidity. I don't know how Mac can hang his hat on being a "cerebral" QB when he makes plays that you'd expect to see from Zach Wilson. I have to imagine the guys would rather play with a QB at this point who has less physical talent but is at least not a dumbass who is scared of his own shadow. I am sure they are all tired of hearing about how "the weapons are bad", "Mac has no talent around him" etc. A lot of these guys are free agents in 2024 and Mac is screwing their market value.