Patriots Injury News Thornton injury update

[Ring 6]

Since the changes made after 2004, it's clear that the top level WR has taken on a much more important role, and that's been increasingly the way to win (yes, you need more, and no you don't win with 3 players in a vaccuum in the NFL, but the overall trend is obvious). And, when there's not the WR, you're going to find a TE. And, of course, there's the QB. Go backwards from last year, and the importance, while not 100%, is obvious. Teams can still get hot even if those positions aren't at the top, and defense is still important, but the pattern is there to see:


2021: Rams - Stafford/Kupp/Beckham/Woods
2020: Bucs - /BradyEvans/Godwin/Brown
2019: Chiefs - Mahomes/Hill/Kelce
2018: Patriots - Brady/Edelman/Gronk
2017: Eagles - Exception (But Ertz, and Wentz for much of the season)
2016: Patriots - Brady/Edelman/Bennett
2015: Broncos - Peyton's corpse/Thomas/Sanders
2014: Patriots - Brady/Edelman/Gronk
2013: Seahawks - Exception (but Wilson, and Harvin when healthy)
etc...

You just tried to sell Martellus Bennett and Emanuel Sanders as a reason teams need elite receivers to win. You also included Robert Woods who was on IR and Beckham who caught a whopping 44 passes for 537 yards all season. And Gronk in a season he caught 47 passes in the reg season and 13 in the post season. That puts the “exception” at 6 of 9.
Yes teams pass the ball 35 time a game in todays NFL so they will mostly all have receivers that catch a lot of passes. This list shows just that all teams throw passes and someone catches them. Few on this list are top 5 or top 10 guys.

 

[PatsFan2]

IF they keep T Thornton on the 53 it will depend on how healthy the Team is. IF guys start dropping like flies I can see BB IR-ing him if he he thinks it betters the Team.

 

[Zuma]

17 games is a long road to hoe for a rookie. I don’t see having a little break at the beginning of the season as a bad thing for him. He’ll have time to absorb what’s he’s learned and apply it once he’s back. And I’ve said previously…he can add some cushion fat pounds to that frame IF he and the team wants.

 

[PatsFan2]

17 games is a long road to hoe for a rookie. I don’t see having a little break at the beginning of the season as a bad thing for him. He’ll have time to absorb what’s he’s learned and apply it once he’s back. And I’ve said previously…he can add some cushion fat pounds to that frame IF he and the team wants.

The Green light to every fast food joint.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I am legitimately asking. Obviously 2007 we were tops. I don’t think the 2014 or 2016 WR corps were elite 2018 squad wasn’t some game changing lineup

2004 group were better than people want to remember.

 

[upstater1]

As a 2nd round pick, he wasn’t good.

He never made a Pro Bowl and never recorded 10 sacks. His best season with the Pats was in 2000, only to be released before 2001.

He was nothing special. He couldn’t snap a football and was expendable after the emergence of Koppen.

He was bad before 2001.

Overall, he was good in 1998, but he couldn’t create much if the blocking wasn’t there (like Michel). FYI, I remember this rumor as I recently watched the 1998 draft on YouTube and the Pats wanted Fred Taylor. The year after they tried to trade up for Edgerin James, but the Colts wanted him.

If you disagree with any of the above, then you’ll have to ask yourself why the Pats imploded by 1999? People want to blame Carroll’s coaching, but It was clearly because of a lack of talent on both sides of the ball.

You're right about Spires and sacks/Pro Bowl BUT... he was the starting DE on Tampa's championship D that won with Trent Dilfer at QB. He had 8 sacks in his best year with them. I mean, I don't know how you can't give credit for this guy. He was a very good player. Unless you're expecting every draft pick to be a Pro Bowler, then Spires has to be deemed a very good draft pick:

"Spires found a place with the Bucs and was their perennial starter at left defensive end from 2002 to 2007. He came at just the right time, as the Bucs sailed through the playoffs and won Super Bowl XXXVII against the Oakland Raiders. He totaled 47 tackles, 3.5 sacks, one forced fumble, one fumble recovery, and one pass defended lining up opposite right defensive end Simeon Rice. Because of the chemistry of this defense, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers became the best pass defense and best overall defense in the NFL. He played on one of the top-tier defenses in 2003, 2004, and 2005 (where they finished first again). Spires helped the Buccaneers to the playoffs, but they lost in the Wild Card round to the Washington Redskins."

Definitely disagree with you on Woody, Mitchell, Faulk and Edwards. Edwards wouldve been a perennial Pro Bowler for us. Woody was. And Woody was replaced by Koppen not because he was unseated, but because he left for a huge contract. As for Faulk and his Carroll years, that doesn't diminish from the drafting of him. Just because Carroll was a twit does not detract from the player.

 

[upstater1]

Looking at this, it's quite possible that the hit by James Ferentz is what caused the broken clavicle.

 

[PatsFan2]

Looking at this, it's quite possible that the hit by James Ferentz is what caused the broken clavicle.

Wow! wish Thanks Dad Ferentz would block air as usual but he make a clean hit on own player friendly fire.

 

[TheRainMaker]

You're right about Spires and sacks/Pro Bowl BUT... he was the starting DE on Tampa's championship D that won with Trent Dilfer at QB. He had 8 sacks in his best year with them. I mean, I don't know how you can't give credit for this guy. He was a very good player. Unless you're expecting every draft pick to be a Pro Bowler, then Spires has to be deemed a very good draft pick:

"Spires found a place with the Bucs and was their perennial starter at left defensive end from 2002 to 2007. He came at just the right time, as the Bucs sailed through the playoffs and won Super Bowl XXXVII against the Oakland Raiders. He totaled 47 tackles, 3.5 sacks, one forced fumble, one fumble recovery, and one pass defended lining up opposite right defensive end Simeon Rice. Because of the chemistry of this defense, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers became the best pass defense and best overall defense in the NFL. He played on one of the top-tier defenses in 2003, 2004, and 2005 (where they finished first again). Spires helped the Buccaneers to the playoffs, but they lost in the Wild Card round to the Washington Redskins."

What does this have to do with his time with the Pats? His success in TB had no benefit to the Pats.

Woody was. And Woody was replaced by Koppen not because he was unseated, but because he left for a huge contract.

Yes, you are right. He did sign a big contract with the Lions. However, Koppen started at C following a Woody injury early in 2003. When Woody returned, Mike Compton got injured as he was the one who snapped the football at 3rd downs. Koppen became the starting C and Woody was moved to G. Koppen was good enough to make Woody expendable at C and Bill did not value him enough to re-sign at G. Woody wasn't missed...like at all.

As for Faulk and his Carroll years, that doesn't diminish from the drafting of him. Just because Carroll was a twit does not detract from the player.

Our original argument was the drafting/roster moves during the Carroll years and how it eroded the team. They were clearly overmatched in the 2nd half of the 1999 season and didn't even make the playoffs. They would've gotten murdered by Jacksonville or Tennessee in 1999 or lost to any other playoff team.

 

[upstater1]

What does this have to do with his time with the Pats? His success in TB had no benefit to the Pats.

Yes, you are right. He did sign a big contract with the Lions. However, Koppen started at C following a Woody injury early in 2003. When Woody returned, Mike Compton got injured as he was the one who snapped the football at 3rd downs. Koppen became the starting C and Woody was moved to G. Koppen was good enough to make Woody expendable at C and Bill did not value him enough to re-sign at G. Woody wasn't missed...like at all.

Our original argument was the drafting/roster moves during the Carroll years and how it eroded the team. They were clearly overmatched in the 2nd half of the 1999 season and didn't even make the playoffs. They would've gotten murdered by Jacksonville or Tennessee in 1999 or lost to any other playoff team.

I think you're moving the goalposts here. I was judging the drafts by the caliber of the players picked. I never got into a discussion of how the team eroded (Carroll was largely to blame for that).

The fact that players had a lot of success under other coaches (Woody, Spires, Faulk, etc.) has more to do with the devolution under Carroll than the caliber of player. Faulk was a helluva player. Spires was a starter and integral to one of the best defenses in NFL history. In other words, these players were good picks for where they were taken.

 

[crawhammer]

I think you're moving the goalposts here. I was judging the drafts by the caliber of the players picked. I never got into a discussion of how the team eroded (Carroll was largely to blame for that).

The biggest problem with the Carroll years (and Belichick's first) was an obvious one... Drew Bledsoe. He had 6 TDs and 17 INTs in the second half of the 1999 season when the team finished 2-6. They won 5 games in 2000. They won the Super Bowl the following season and there wasn't a massive overhauling of the roster. In fact a lot of the main contributors dated back to Parcells... Adam Vinatieri, Troy Brown, Lawyer Milloy, Ty Law, Tedy Bruschi, Ted Johnson, Willie McGinest. The big difference was the change of quarterback.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I think you're moving the goalposts here. I was judging the drafts by the caliber of the players picked. I never got into a discussion of how the team eroded (Carroll was largely to blame for that).

This is how it got started:

Brackens would've been an awesome pick and one of the best DE's for some time, but Glenn gave them the firepower to get to the Super Bowl in 1996 and stay a contender in the late 90's. The Carrol years were derailed by injuries (McGinest, Martin, Edwards, Glenn), bad drafts and terrible roster moves (letting Martin, Gash and Willie Clay go).

Your response:

When you really look at those Grier drafts they weren't that bad.

Glenn, Milloy, Bruschi, Brandon Mitchell, Tebucky, Robert Edwards, Greg Spires, Damien Woody, Kevin Faulk, even Andy Katzenmoyer before his injury.

If you take out 1997, it's even more impressive to have grabbed 5 Pro Bowlers in 3 years (Glenn, Milloy, Bruschi, Spires, Woody) and that doesn't even include Robert Edwards and Faulk.

But yes, 1997 was horrendous.

The fact that players had a lot of success under other coaches (Woody, Spires, Faulk, etc.) has more to do with the devolution under Carroll than the caliber of player. Faulk was a helluva player. Spires was a starter and integral to one of the best defenses in NFL history. In other words, these players were good picks for where they were taken.

I don't think you follow what I've been arguing from the beginning. While some players were fine from the start (Katz, Woody, Edwards), they weren't even close to being good enough at the time to help a Patriots team that was a serious playoff contender from 1997-1999 (and these are the drafts that I'm referring to. Not 1996 which Carroll was not a part of).

Also, you blame Carroll for Spires, but what about Bill? That was a goof not keeping him as they were a 4-3 team until 2003.

The biggest problem with the Carroll years (and Belichick's first) was an obvious one... Drew Bledsoe. He had 6 TDs and 17 INTs in the second half of the 1999 season when the team finished 2-6. They won 5 games in 2000. They won the Super Bowl the following season and there wasn't a massive overhauling of the roster. In fact a lot of the main contributors dated back to Parcells... Adam Vinatieri, Troy Brown, Lawyer Milloy, Ty Law, Tedy Bruschi, Ted Johnson, Willie McGinest. The big difference was the change of quarterback.

O-line, running game and defense stunk in 1999. Belichick also laid the blueprint of harassing Bledsoe with delayed blitzes up the middle.

Bledsoe was very uncomfortable under center a ton in 2000 because Damien Woody couldn't snap the ball out of the shotgun. No running game in 2000 and a very shaky O-line. Bledsoe didn't fit the offense. However, after one good season with Buffalo in 2002, he started to implode.

Vintateri was a very inconsistent kicker before 2001. That missed would be game winning kick in KC in 1999 still pisses me off.

 

[patfanken]

Come on, now. The Patriots have the worst group in their own division. They'd be no higher than 4th if they moved to the AFCW (the Chiefs would be in 5th, as of now). That puts them behind 6 right there, and we haven't even gotten to the AFCN or AFCS yet.

that may be true but what does it matter. The Pats were a top contender for over 20 years with 9 superbowl appearances and 13 conference finals with 6 winds and in NONE of them did we ever had what most people would think of as the best WR group going into a season in the AFCE let alone the NFL (well maybe 2007)

What you want to say is "is your WR group better than last year" and you cannot deny that it IS, by any gauge. Last year the Pats were #6 in scoring with a rookie QB, a WR we all thought were the worst in the division, and a VERY conservative offensive philosophy made imperative by the youthful QB, and so many new faces among the TE's and WR's.

This year ALL that is changed. The QB's WR's and TE's have all had a chance to improve their skills and understanding of the offense. We've improved the WR talent with Thornton, Humphrey's. and added speed and experience to the RB room with Strong and Montgomery. We have EVERY reason to believe the this offense will be better than the last and the FACT that we've only seen 3 series of a somewhat first team roster, we shouldn't be making any blanket judgments on where we will be,

Used to be that when the first team would be playing about 4 or 5 quarters of football over 4 preseason games. Now we will lucky to see them play 2 quarters over 3 games.

I don't see how we can make ANY real judgments about where ANY of these teams are now. The old adage that the first 4 games of the season are still the preseason. For these teams has never been more closer to the truth. How we look and what identity this team has after 4 games in September will be indicative of what kind of team we will have to root for over the next 3 or 4 months and what we are chirping about here in August or even September when the games start to count. I'm hoping we can steal 2 or 3 games next month and keep improving while we are doing it.

 

[patfanken]

Are you really going to go down this road?

Why not? its a road you seem to be gong down a lot. Team ranking comparisons are pretty ridiculous in my own humble opinion, just as any individual rankings are because they are all made in the context of 10 other players being needed to record that "individual" stat.

But it was you to got us down that rabbit hole, so enjoy!

 

[patfanken]

IF they keep T Thornton on the 53 it will depend on how healthy the Team is. IF guys start dropping like flies I can see BB IR-ing him if he he thinks it betters the Team.

There is no if about it. He WILL be on the final 53 on the 31st. Missing 6 games on the outside is not going to be a big deal in the long run. Also remember that in about 3 weeks he will be able to get back to running routes and making cuts as well as catching the ball. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he's back practicing by the first or second week of October. Remember he gets about 2 or 3 weeks of practice BEFORE he actually counts on the roster.

 

[patfanken]

2004 group were better than people want to remember.

That 2004 team was the BEST of the first part of the dynasty. I didn't think that was even a question. If you took a poll they would get over 90%

 

[NG Pats Fan]

Patriots Rookie WRs who gets injured typically have not gone on to do much in their careers. Hope this situation is different

 

[NG Pats Fan]

Please Tyquan don’t become another

Chad Jackson
Bethel Johnson
Brandon Tate
Nkeal Harriet
Josh Boyce
Aaron Dropson
Taylor Price

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Sooooo good article from NESN about K. Bourne being "disgruntled," for what it's worth.

If it's how that article makes it sound, he wasn't too happy with the new offense install. Again, for what it is worth, For all we know, it's pure speculation or made up out of thin air. But it would certainly answer some questions.

For fun, let's speculate a Bourne trade, and use of 2 designations for Wilkerson and Thornton. So once the time passes and we have moved Thornton & Wilkerson to the IR...

1) Parker
2) Meyers
3) Agholor
4) Nixon vs. Humphry
5) Ty Montgomery swiss army knife
6) Slater

... or, Nixon and Humphrey if you keep 7.

Jesus we have a lot of receivers you could see productinig. Maybe I am just inflating performance vs. 2s and 3s.

 

[upstater1]

This is how it got started:

What I said was plain as day.

The drafts yielded enough good players. I never said anything about the team eroding. If you have good players that go on and play well elsewhere, that's a coaching problem. Not a player problem.

My original (and only point) was that those 4 drafts yielded some Pro Bowlers in guys like Bruschi, Glenn, Milloy, Woody, and some very good players like Faulk, Spires, Edwards, etc.