The Ron Brace disaster

[FredFromDartmouth]

Gentlemen gentlemen; let's keep this civil.

The internet is like that; I am sure if we were chatting around beers there would be more friendly banter...

 

[SoonerPatriot]

Don't know if Brace is a disaster, but there is a pattern of players who have been drafted and later on becoming successful players getting on the field consistently in their first year.

Butler, Chung, Vollmer, Edelman last year...

Mankins as a rookie....

Daniel Graham was a hammer his first year but never developed as a big time catching threat...

Branch and Givens as first year players...

Wilfork made an immediate impact...

Mayo was factor in his first season...


On the other hand guys like PK Sam, Chad Jackson, Wheatley, Crable, Woods, Marquise Hill and others have not gotten on the field consistently their first year (and beyond) and have been generally busts.

 

[reflexblue]

I guess Freddy has a pretty high standard trying to grade Brace using maybe the greatest LB of all time and a HOF D-lineman in Seymour. They were also Very high draft picks.

 

[captain stone]

I am still trying to figure out how BB whiffed on this guy. He is usually really really good at picking the DL. Was it a panic move to get leverage or insurance on Vince; i.e. was it forced on him by the bean counters?

I feel that Brace was def. Wilfork Insurance, because he clearly wasn't athletic enough to play the 5-Technique here. I did want a backup NT better than Mike Wright, who is a 4-3 DT & a 3-4 DE, but under no circumstances is he a 3-4 NT. However, Bill could've acquired his backup NT in the 7th round by drafting Hampton's Chris Baker or by signing a vet FA

But to draft Brace ahead of Connor Barwin - or even Everette Brown or Clint Sintim - and not draft any Pass-Rushers whatsoever, is Special Olympic-sized ******ed. Bill really, really Effed-up that pick, big time. He Must Draft the Best Available Pass-Rusher with #44.

I now hope that Bill chose the correct CB when the consensus higher-rated Kyle Wilson was chosen just 2 picks later - by the Effin Jesters. I like the decision to draft a CB, but I also would've chosen Kyle Wilson instead.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

I feel that Brace was def. Wilfork Insurance, because he clearly wasn't athletic enough to play the 5-Technique here. I did want a backup NT better than Mike Wright, who is a 4-3 DT & a 3-4 DE, but under no circumstances is he a 3-4 NT. However, Bill could've acquired his backup NT in the 7th round by drafting Hampton's Chris Baker or by signing a vet FA

But to draft Brace ahead of Connor Barwin - or even Everette Brown or Clint Sintim - and not draft any Pass-Rushers whatsoever, is Special Olympic-sized ******ed. Bill really, really Effed-up that pick, big time. He Must Draft the Best Available Pass-Rusher with #44.

I now hope that Bill chose the correct CB when the consensus higher-rated Kyle Wilson was chosen just 2 picks later - by the Effin Jesters. I like the decision to draft a CB, but I also would've chosen Kyle Wilson instead.

Drafting Brace was totally out of character for BB who has proved excellent at evaluating DL talent; was it a money issue to try to prevent getting blackmailed by Vince. Maybe it was just his enormous bulk and if Brace really has firmed up he could be massive plugger.

As far as Wilson I think we all have to believe that BB has a better handle on CBs than the drug-store draft guides. I suspect that they were similar on the Patriots board but McCourty must have had an edge. That edge must be real. Anyone that Felger and Borges hates that much has to be pretty special.

I can tell you this for sure though; both CBs are a much better value than Dez.

 

[State]

Yeah, I don't think highly of the Ron Brace pick. I guess it was a little panicky. But how does one run the 3-4 without a NT? And clearly Mike Wright isn't up to it.

But I though this year had a player in Cam Thomas of North Carolina who is better than Brace and went to the Bolts in the fifth round. I'm disappointed we don't have him on our roster.

http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_14952813

There's video of Senior Bowl practice with him throwing around BC's Matt Tennant like a rag doll. Ron Brace doesn't have the eye of the tiger look. Why does he sit around watching f'ing cartoons all the time?

 

[PatsFanStnfrd]

There was thinking that Brace was drafted because he got credit with Raji for the DL performance at Boston College. Raji got picked by Green Bay. Pats got Brace. We''ll find out what we have in Brace this year.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I am still trying to figure out how BB whiffed on this guy. He is usually really really good at picking the DL. Was it a panic move to get leverage or insurance on Vince; i.e. was it forced on him by the bean counters?

Where is it written that we whiffed? When Brace is cut, then we wiffed; in the mean time it took Wilfork two years to learn to be a NT. Why would you expect more of Brace?

 

[AzPatsFan]

Ron Brace was a project pick. He lacked the strength to play NT. No one should have expected him to do well last year, and he might not even be great this year. We drafted him because he has the perfect frame for a NT which is an extremely rare trait. Year 3 is the make or break year for him.

I concur. :yawn2::yawn2:

 

[AzPatsFan]

I guess Freddy has a pretty high standard trying to grade Brace using maybe the greatest LB of all time and a HOF D-lineman in Seymour. They were also Very high draft picks.

Tedy Bruschi wasn't a regular for four going on five years... Neither was Brady. But Couch, Carrington, etc were... Different strokes for different folks.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Might I pose a question of the perrenial doubters?

Did you ever consider the possibility that BB did not draft several DE/OL pass rushers because he intends to use the Top Ten pick from the Raiders to get a truly IMPACT one next year ? When that draft is supposed to be filled with spectacular entries. The high pick this year is more a Mike Vrabel type SOLB/LOLB than the RDE/ROLB pass rusher.

Do you think he might not have gone for a few more LBs last year when he wanted Brandon Spikes to fit idealy, and play next to Mayo... and chose to wait for him?

Jes Askin...

 

[Patsfanineastnutsack]

First of all, I'd just like to say that I have feelings too. Don't like my name being thrown out there as a nobody. I can bring insight to a ridiculous thread as this, but see....I won't. Well, maybe. Honestly I don't know.

I will say that as fans we sure do like to run people out of town though. Only one season in, not a negative attitude from the guy, just does his work, and goes home, but yet we are so quick to call them a disaster after just one year.

One year.

And people say nose tackles are dumb >.<

 

[DW Toys]

First of all, I'd just like to say that I have feelings too. Don't like my name being thrown out there as a nobody. I can bring insight to a ridiculous thread as this, but see....I won't. Well, maybe. Honestly I don't know.

I will say that as fans we sure do like to run people out of town though. Only one season in, not a negative attitude from the guy, just does his work, and goes home, but yet we are so quick to call them a disaster after just one year.

One year.

And people say nose tackles are dumb >.<

Brace failure? No. Wrong fit? Yes. Should have went to a 4-3 Team. BC plays the 4-3 and if you analyze it Raji started only one game for GB to Braces two, but he also wound up in a 3-4 never, never land.

Swap him to the Vikes with a pick next year for Edwards or to SF for Lawson same deal.

Rumor is Cliff Avril is on the block. Brace for Avril? 5.5 sacks and 3 PDF. Have Brace playing next to Suh with Vanden Bosch with Hunter and Sammy Lee Hill in a rotation and Brace would excel.
DW Toys

 

[mcmurtry86]

Don't know if Brace is a disaster, but there is a pattern of players who have been drafted and later on becoming successful players getting on the field consistently in their first year.

Butler, Chung, Vollmer, Edelman last year...

Mankins as a rookie....

Daniel Graham was a hammer his first year but never developed as a big time catching threat...

Branch and Givens as first year players...

Wilfork made an immediate impact...

Mayo was factor in his first season...


On the other hand guys like PK Sam, Chad Jackson, Wheatley, Crable, Woods, Marquise Hill and others have not gotten on the field consistently their first year (and beyond) and have been generally busts.

I call total BS on this:

Givens played 12 games with 9 catches and barely saw the field except in garbage time. He had unreliable hands and spent the entire offseason after his rookie year with a JUGGS machine. He was a non-factor his rookie year

Wilfork was almost a total non factor until halfway through his rookie season

Warren played sparingly until the last month of the season in his rookie year. He made just 4 starts and 19 tackles

Asante Samuel (you remember him?) 1 start and was primarily a backup (not unlike Wilhite or Wheatley was his rookie year before his injury vs the colts)

Meriweather started no games and got very little meaningful playing time until the end of his rookie season

Graham only started 6 of 12 games his rookie season and was backing up Fauria most of the season (i.e. a lot of his starts were in 2 TE formations)

The pattern is, unless you're a blue chipper (Seymour, Mankins, Mayo), Belichick works you in slowly. This is especially true on defense, where he prefers to go with a veteran and have the young guy displace the vet by the end of year 1 or by the start of year 2. Koppen is one of the few exceptions, but nearly every other rookie - productive player or bust - has been worked in slowly.

The other case when Belichick will play a rookie early and often is in the case of injury (Vollmer) or total ineffectiveness of the veteran (Eugene Wilson).

Your list of "PK Sam, Chad Jackson, Wheatley, Crable, Woods, Marquise Hill and others have not gotten on the field consistently their first year (and beyond) and have been generally busts." is pretty hilarious considering one of those guys has been on IR for 2 years (Crable), one started on PUP IIRC (Jackson) and Wheatley landed on IR halfway through his rookie year. Putting an undrafted Woods and a 5th rounder like PK Sam in the "bust because they weren't good enough to play significant minutes" category is both ridiculous and unrealistically high expectations to put on a rookie.

Fact is, the Pats have been a very good and mostly talented team for the last 10 years. They have had the luxury of working in guys slowly. It's not a sign of failure for a guy to ride the pine a lot his rookie season. Very few rookies can step in and grasp the Patriots system enough for BB's liking for him to throw them out there. Couple that with his near insistence for having a veteran alternative to every rookie, and you get guys who produce far more in year 2 and 3 than their rookie years.

 

[mcmurtry86]

Brace failure? No. Wrong fit? Yes. Should have went to a 4-3 Team. BC plays the 4-3 and if you analyze it Raji started only one game for GB to Braces two, but he also wound up in a 3-4 never, never land.

Swap him to the Vikes with a pick next year for Edwards or to SF for Lawson same deal.

Rumor is Cliff Avril is on the block. Brace for Avril? 5.5 sacks and 3 PDF. Have Brace playing next to Suh with Vanden Bosch with Hunter and Sammy Lee Hill in a rotation and Brace would excel.
DW Toys

Wilfork played 4-3 in college. Is he a "wrong fit" too? There are very,very few 3-4 teams in college. If you want to find a 0 technique guy, you need (usually) to draft a 1 or 3 technique and hope to coach him up to play nose.

By your logic, Jay Ratliff must be a terrible NT. Surprised the Cowboys didn't trade him for some magic beans when they had the chance.

Also, how does Edwards fit in a 3-4 defense? He's too light to play 5-technique and not athletic enough (IMO) to play OLB.

Why don't you tell me which NT's in football were a "good fit" coming out of school? Because in the last decade there have been very,very few guys coming out of 3-4 programs.

 

[DaBruinz]

On the other hand guys like PK Sam, Chad Jackson, Wheatley, Crable, Woods, Marquise Hill and others have not gotten on the field consistently their first year (and beyond) and have been generally busts.

It's generally a given that guys beyond the 4th round don't get considered to be busts because the likelihood of them making the team is so small. So you putting guys like PK Sam and Woods on your list is pretty stupid.

Woods hasn't been a bust because of his special teams play.

Yes, Chad Jackson can be considered a bust because he was cut during his third year.

Crable and Wheatley, the jury is still out on.

It's pretty funny how Pats fans who ignore salient facts (like there being 4 quality guys in front of someone like Hill) sound pretty damn stupid when they start listing guys as busts. Hell, it's pretty funny that Marquise Hill was considered a key cog by everyone because of his ability to help the team getting ready for the opposition. Yet, ignorant Pats fans call him a bust. OH, and one other thing, it was the PLAYERS who went to management to keep Hill's locker in the locker room and basically make it into a shrine after his passing. Not because of what he did off the field. Because of the type of teammate he was and because of what he did on the practice field. Sorry, but players don't do that for someone who doesn't bring anything to the team and who is a "BUST".

 

[Kontradiction]

Should rename this thread "The FredFromDartmouth disaster".

 

[DW Toys]

Wilfork played 4-3 in college. Is he a "wrong fit" too? There are very,very few 3-4 teams in college. If you want to find a 0 technique guy, you need (usually) to draft a 1 or 3 technique and hope to coach him up to play nose.

By your logic, Jay Ratliff must be a terrible NT. Surprised the Cowboys didn't trade him for some magic beans when they had the chance.

Also, how does Edwards fit in a 3-4 defense? He's too light to play 5-technique and not athletic enough (IMO) to play OLB.

Why don't you tell me which NT's in football were a "good fit" coming out of school? Because in the last decade there have been very,very few guys coming out of 3-4 programs.

You are right Cousin. Some college DT's can make the transition to NT and some cannot.
(see Brace at this time)

Keisel Pittsburgh
Castillo San Diego
Ellis Jets
Green Broncos

All DE's with weights from 275-290

IMO he can play OLB though. You can't consider TBC who is at this time is our OLB starter, of having much more athletic ability as far as dropping into coverage, can you?
DW Toys

 

[thodoks]

Should rename this thread "The FredFromDartmouth disaster".

I like the cut of your jib, friend.

 

[TheComeback]

It's ridiculous to call any second year player a disaster. Brace was bad last year, but he was not as bad as the fans have made him out to be. Wilfork didn't pick up his play until more than halfway through his rookie season, and he was a top-10 talent coming out of the draft. It disappoints, but doesn't surprise me, that Brace struggled last year. He could still develop into a solid run-stopper in time.

Brace played DE in the 3-4 last year, so whoever is complaining about his size needs to their research. He doesn't have to fit the prototype to play the position, especially on running downs. He is definitely an option to compete for the RDE spot, and if he manages to win it in camp or later in the season, I think that bodes well for the future of our defense.