The punt subsitution delay of game sequence

[XLIX]

It didnt really matter because we wanted the extra 5 yards anyway.

It mattered because the Chiefs had 12 men on the field. If the ump gets out of the way with a couple seconds left on the play clock and they snap the ball, it would’ve been a Patriots first down.

 

[XLIX]

I meant the delay.
It’s unreasonable to expect a 12 men penalty when you run 11 guys on and they do the same by do it slower
Clearly the ref will not allow a snap until the guys trying to get off the field do.

That’s correct, but a Chief messed up his assignment. After all the scrambling, they still had 12 men on the field. It wasn’t a situation where the 12th guy was sprinting for the sidelines; he was in the defensive/special teams formation.

 

[Chevrolet]

Actually, looking back, it was a smart play by the Patriots. Based on their location on the field it was without effect to get the 5 yard delay penalty (maybe a benefit). OTOH if the Refs allowed the snap before the play clock expired and it resulted in a penalty for 12 men? Maybe it changes the loss of possession.

The opponent absolutely has to be given an adequate amount of time to change personnel. How much time that is? That's a good question. IMHO it can't be an open amount. On fourth down in that situation it's incumbent on the opposition to be ready to put their punt team on the field quickly.

This was an extremely unusual situation where the offense suddenly changed ALL 11 men on offense, so the defense had to be given an opportunity to change ALL 11 men on defense. This is quite different from usual situation where only 3-4 guys have to come on field and get set. Since it involved all 11 men coming on field getting to their positions and getting set, it was probably reasonable to give the defense a full 10 -11 seconds to do so.

I think if a team wants to do this they should make the switch with at least 25 seconds left on playclock to avoid DOG penalty

 

[Ring 6]

That’s correct, but a Chief messed up his assignment. After all the scrambling, they still had 12 men on the field. It wasn’t a situation where the 12th guy was sprinting for the sidelines; he was in the defensive/special teams formation.

Well the 13th was and I’m sure it is unrealistic that the ref counts whether he is 12th or 13th so he can determine it’s going to be a penalty and give them less time than he normally would.

 

[Sciz]

This is over four years old, but I think it’s still relevant. Apparently, the defense can’t get a 12 men penalty in that situation:
“If a play takes place and a defensive foul for too many players on the field results, no penalties will be enforced, except for personal fouls and unsportsmanlike conduct, and the down will be replayed. At this time, the Referee will notify the head coach that any further use of this tactic will result in a penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct.”

Offense not allowed to quick-sub and quick-snap

 

[XLIX]

Well the 13th was and I’m sure it is unrealistic that the ref counts whether he is 12th or 13th so he can determine it’s going to be a penalty and give them less time than he normally would.

What do you mean it’s unrealistic that the ref counts whether he is 12 or 13? That’s the back judge’s job: to count defensive players every single play. And even if the back judge miscounted due to the confusion, it is still challengeable.

 

[Ring 6]

What do you mean it’s unrealistic that the ref counts whether he is 12 or 13? That’s the back judge’s job: to count defensive players every single play. And even if the back judge miscounted due to the confusion, it is still challengeable.

I’m saying it’s unrealistic to expect the referee standing over the ball enforcing the rule that says the defense needs to be given time to get off the field to say go ahead and snap early because there is a 12th guy not trying to get off so we don’t have to wait until the guy who is running off has time to get off the field.

You seem to think the referee is supposed to help them pull off a trick.

 

[Angelpats]

I’m saying it’s unrealistic to expect the referee standing over the ball enforcing the rule that says the defense needs to be given time to get off the field to say go ahead and snap early because there is a 12th guy not trying to get off so we don’t have to wait until the guy who is running off has time to get off the field.

You seem to think the referee is supposed to help them pull off a trick.

It’s not that judge’s job to count the players on the field. It’s his job to determine everyone one was ready. If we had a second to snap it our drive would have continued with the 12th man penalty. We just needed to do it earlier or after a timeout.

 

[1960Pats]

The rule says he has to give the defense time to get on/off the field. If we wait too long and the play clock expires the ref shouldn’t ignore that responsibility.

I agree, but in this case, after watching the replay, both teams were set with enough time and the ref waited a few extra seconds too long.

I think the Pats were probably going to take the penalty anyway, but they didn't have to be forced into it.

Maybe this is a way that Belichick feels he can train the referees to do it faster.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

This is over four years old, but I think it’s still relevant. Apparently, the defense can’t get a 12 men penalty in that situation:
“If a play takes place and a defensive foul for too many players on the field results, no penalties will be enforced, except for personal fouls and unsportsmanlike conduct, and the down will be replayed. At this time, the Referee will notify the head coach that any further use of this tactic will result in a penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct.”

Offense not allowed to quick-sub and quick-snap

I liked this from the article:

This is a very straightforward rule so it surprised me a bit that the Patriots blatantly tried to sneak this one past Walt Anderson’s crew. Anderson and his crew know the rules, though, and were having none of it.

First, I enjoy that it was Mr. DeflateGate referee they're talking about, who "know the rules" yet "somehow" let the game balls get out of his sight when the rules state he wasn't supposed to....

Second, it's interesting to infer what the Patriots might think of Clete Blakeman......

 

[XLIX]

I’m saying it’s unrealistic to expect the referee standing over the ball enforcing the rule that says the defense needs to be given time to get off the field to say go ahead and snap early because there is a 12th guy not trying to get off so we don’t have to wait until the guy who is running off has time to get off the field.

You seem to think the referee is supposed to help them pull off a trick.

I have no problem with the ref standing over the ball the way he did. NE waited too long to make their substitution. The only issue I have is with your statement that “it didn’t really matter.” It mattered because it was the difference between getting a first down and having 4th and 7.

I like the strategy, just maybe next time start the scramble drill with 20-25 seconds left on the play clock.

 

[Ring 6]

It’s not that judge’s job to count the players on the field. It’s his job to determine everyone one was ready. If we had a second to snap it our drive would have continued with the 12th man penalty. We just needed to do it earlier or after a timeout.

That’s exactly what I’m saying. People are arguing he should have let us snap because the guy he was waiting for was the 13th player. How would he know?

 

[Ring 6]

I have no problem with the ref standing over the ball the way he did. NE waited too long to make their substitution. The only issue I have is with your statement that “it didn’t really matter.” It mattered because it was the difference between getting a first down and having 4th and 7.

I like the strategy, just maybe next time start the scramble drill with 20-25 seconds left on the play clock.

I already clarified that it didn’t matter was referring to the 5 yards for delay of game.

 

[Ring 6]

I liked this from the article:


First, I enjoy that it was Mr. DeflateGate referee they're talking about, who "know the rules" yet "somehow" let the game balls get out of his sight when the rules state he wasn't supposed to....

Second, it's interesting to infer what the Patriots might think of Clete Blakeman......

I don’t think they were trying to get a 12 men on the field penalty.
I think they were just trying to create confusion. Some teams will just keep the defense out there and make it easier for us to pin them back.
I also think part of this is that someday, when they want to run a fake punt they will do it thus way to add confusion.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree, but in this case, after watching the replay, both teams were set with enough time and the ref waited a few extra seconds too long.

I think the Pats were probably going to take the penalty anyway, but they didn't have to be forced into it.

Maybe this is a way that Belichick feels he can train the referees to do it faster.

As someone else posted you can’t get a 12 man penalty this way.
I havent watched the replay but I remember a fat guy running off the field that they waited on.

 

[IllegalContact]

I have no problem with the ref standing over the ball the way he did. NE waited too long to make their substitution. The only issue I have is with your statement that “it didn’t really matter.” It mattered because it was the difference between getting a first down and having 4th and 7.

I like the strategy, just maybe next time start the scramble drill with 20-25 seconds left on the play clock.

yup......it was a screw up by the pats.......they waited too long......at a certain point in time, the decision needs to be made to just keep the offense out there and try to draw the offsides

 

[TinhWoodhead]

waiting for John Harbaugh to chime in....

 

[Sicilian]

I understand where people are coming from, and I always applaud BB and the Pats coaching staff for trying different things to take advantage of less thorough opponents. But I'm also okay with important plays not being decided by things like this. They were really cutting it close with the play clock, and if they had done it with maybe two more seconds it probably would have worked. But as it was, I didn't think the time given to KC was egregious.

 

[Urgent]

If this is the enforcement of this rule, does it negate the switcheroo strategy?
The Patriots have done that a couple times during the season - leave the offense on the field, then run the punt team out. It hasn't appeared to be a we-totally-just-changed-our-minds approach, but something to stress the special teams set up.
Was this penalty a move by the league to discourage this strategy?
If the officials can subjectively wait as long as they want, then the switcheroo won't work.

15 seconds isn't a terrifically tight time window in the NFL. Most of the special teams players run 40 yards in under five seconds. On third down special teams is presumably prepared on both teams.
But this enforcement could end that practice.

 

[captain stone]

I think punting was the right decision, as could not afford to give Chiefs the ball with such good field position at that point in the game.

I don't.

Pats should've tried for the 1st down; a stretch handoff to Michel would've done the job. Automatic FG range.

And at that point in the game, the Quiefs offense hadn't done jack feckin squat.