The optimistic case for Mac Jones

[archstanton543]

Would have been tough to blow it all up right before opening day. Not sure there’s precedent for that working out well.

It's kind of a zero sum. It wasn't working so if they switched to something else that didn't work they'd still be in the same boat...but if it did the problem's solved. They chose to stick with what wasn't working.

 

[Wozzy]

I’m not sure the #TeamZappe side of the argument is really all in on Zappe or they just don’t like Mac Jones. I suspect it’s the latter. I bet if the Patriots sign a big name vet then the Zappe bandwagon will clear out.

I’m wait and see on Mac but only for this season. He won’t get the benefit of the doubt more than this one time. I don’t want to see any more hysterics either and I’m guessing Bill feels the same way.

I like them both, liked them both before the draft... "like" has nothing to do with it at this point. I want the guy who plays better.

Both have the tools to do the job. If Mac is erratic and throwing interceptions when he shouldn't, play Zappe. That being said once Mac saw Zappe enter a game last year and play relatively mistake free it pushed Mac to fix his mistakes once he returned from injury.

Mac put up one of the most efficient college seasons in history at Alabama, I believe his QB Rating is second all time in NCAA history. I don't doubt he has it in him to play well and efficiently... Zappe either for that matter. It's good to have two options at QB to get it right. Keep drafting the position until you get it right.

 

[Wozzy]

In the Lions game Zappe and the offense were given 6 fourth down stops by the defense and he only managed 188 yards and one TD out of that. The offense didn’t look any better to me in that game than they had all season up to that point. Exceptional only if the standard is a backup rookie making his first career start. Imo

In the Lion's game, the first start of his career btw and with Bozo the clown calling plays, he only passed 21 times and they ran the ball 35 times.

Zappe was 17-21 for 188 yards, 1 TD with a 100 QB Rating... his lone interception came when Nelson Agholor had the ball thrown directly into his hands and fumbled the ball into the hands of a defender. Exceptional for a rookie is exactly what I was describing.

 

[Triumph]

Noone is closing the door. What is idiotic is to complain about Mac's arm while saying Zappe is the solution. Both arms are fine. No need to criticize Mac or Zappe, let it play out. Let's have intelligent discussions here.

Do you wear coke bottle glasses? I stated that Zappe needs another chance not that he is the answer. Unlike you, I will call Zappe out if he fails like Corky instead of spewing propaganda that everything is hunky dory. Fans of Mac are full of BS.

Im all for intelligent discussions.

Quit responding so I can have one.

 

[lancerman]

In the Lions game Zappe and the offense were given 6 fourth down stops by the defense and he only managed 188 yards and one TD out of that. The offense didn’t look any better to me in that game than they had all season up to that point. Exceptional only if the standard is a backup rookie making his first career start. Imo

I’m not sure the #TeamZappe side of the argument is really all in on Zappe or they just don’t like Mac Jones. I suspect it’s the latter. I bet if the Patriots sign a big name vet then the Zappe bandwagon will clear out.

I’m wait and see on Mac but only for this season. He won’t get the benefit of the doubt more than this one time. I don’t want to see any more hysterics either and I’m guessing Bill feels the same way.

The problem is that mindset is how people come to the conclusion that we should start someone like Stidham.

Every single team ever that doesn't have an elite or at minimum solidified franchise QB thinks there's some uncovered gem on the bench and that the coaches are wrong for not giving them a chance despite knowing far more about them.

Zappe is not an NFL caliber starter and never will be. Mac is someone who depending on how he develops could go either way.

My issue is, if you aren't sold on Mac, you should be looking off the team towards the draft or free agency for a QB. Not for the mediocre guy on the bench. But it's convenient to think he's the answer because it's less of an investment if Zappe magically works out and becomes something he really isn't than to spend the 14th pick or pay a fortune to lure someone here.

 

[Ollie]

Do you wear coke bottle glasses? I stated that Zappe needs another chance not that he is the answer. Unlike you, I will call Zappe out if he fails like Corky instead of spewing propaganda that everything is hunky dory. Fans of Mac are full of BS.

Im all for intelligent discussions.

Quit responding so I can have one.

If you want an intelligent discussion then at least do your part and stop with the emotive hunky dory propaganda ********. Literally no one is saying everything is ok and i have not heard many people say that Mac will defintely be a high level starting qb but to say i will call zappe out if he fails like Corky is just argumentative crap. Its not being a Mac fan or Mac apologist to suggest that Mac needs a chance with a real OC that just seems like common sense to me and i actually don't like Mac.

 

[catent]

The problem is that mindset is how people come to the conclusion that we should start someone like Stidham.

Every single team ever that doesn't have an elite or at minimum solidified franchise QB thinks there's some uncovered gem on the bench and that the coaches are wrong for not giving them a chance despite knowing far more about them.

Zappe is not an NFL caliber starter and never will be. Mac is someone who depending on how he develops could go either way.

My issue is, if you aren't sold on Mac, you should be looking off the team towards the draft or free agency for a QB. Not for the mediocre guy on the bench. But it's convenient to think he's the answer because it's less of an investment if Zappe magically works out and becomes something he really isn't than to spend the 14th pick or pay a fortune to lure someone here.

“Zappe is not an NFL caliber starter and never will be”.

Pass your crystal ball my way.

For all the folks lamenting those writing off Mac Jones because they are not supporting the team/its players, I assume you’ll loudly chime in on this post for engaging in the exact same behavior?

Two sides of the same coin, and it’s not good for the discourse here.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Look a lot of people have done comps and one that came up is a pre-injury Chad Pennington.

The guy never had a lot of velocity on his arm, but managed to be serviceable and bring the Jets to the playoffs.

However as a whole his playoff record was 2-4 and he never got back to his early career form.

Is that going to happen to Mac Jones? Too early to say. But year 3 is definitely a turning point year.

Is Mac Jones going to turn into a top 10 quarterback with just average to poor arm strength, poor pocket escapability, bad decision-making, and poor pocket awareness?

No, there's zero chance of that happening unless he improves by leaps and bounds compared to year 2.

Now if we're settling for mediocrity at QB and trying to build around the team, aka try to win with a Vinny Testaverde type, it's probably not the worst result for Mac to be only a mid QB.

But the Patriots strength is based on their defense and they typically don't invest a lot in the offense and are terrible at drafting WR talent.

So how are the Patriotss going to catch up to the rest of the league if their QB can't 'elevate' mediocre to poor WR talent like a certain TB12 used to do?

It's really hard to say other than the defense has to play out of their minds to get wins, and we'll probably still lose when it counts in the postseason because by that point you're ONLY playing against top teams and top tier Quarterbacks.

So Mac Jones either evolves to the next level next season, or it's time to go back to the draft and look for a better option. Either that or you trade for Lamar Jackson, but I have a feeling we're not going into that direction because we want to see what Mac can do first. I just don't know what franchise level QB will be available for trade next year IF Mac fails.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Zappe is not an NFL caliber starter and never will be. Mac is someone who depending on how he develops could go either way.

And what proof do you have of this? Zappe handily outperformed Mac Jones last year and didn't get nearly the same amount of opportunities. He had one bad performance against the Bears but guess what Mac Jones was 3/6 for 13 piddly yards against the Bears so he didn't cover himself in glory either. We won't know what Zappe is going to be until the two QBs get a chance to fairly compete in training camp for the starting job and then play a significant amount of minutes to give us a solid basis to judge their ability.

Now if your argument is that Mac is not good enough, well yes it sure looked that way last year. However I believe the offense is going to get a 'mulligan' and a chance to redeem themselves because of the absolute clown show that was the Matt Patricia/Joe Judge offense last year making everyone involved look bad.

Would I mind if the Patriots drafted a QB early to compete with Mac Jones and Zappe? I wouldn't because I don't have a lot of confidence in either guy. I just know statistically that Zappe clearly outplayed Mac but in a very limited sample size.

Sadly the team is just unlikely to spend a high enough draft pick to get a high ceiling QB prospect when Mac is still in year 3 of his contract and we already spent a 1st rounder on him. BB will give MAC10 every chance to justify that high draft pick before looking for a replacement.

 

[sb1]

Look a lot of people have done comps and one that came up is a pre-injury Chad Pennington.

The guy never had a lot of velocity on his arm, but managed to be serviceable and bring the Jets to the playoffs.

However as a whole his playoff record was 2-4 and he never got back to his early career form.

Is that going to happen to Mac Jones? Too early to say. But year 3 is definitely a turning point year.

Is Mac Jones going to turn into a top 10 quarterback with just average to poor arm strength, poor pocket escapability, bad decision-making, and poor pocket awareness?

No, there's zero chance of that happening unless he improves by leaps and bounds compared to year 2.

Now if we're settling for mediocrity at QB and trying to build around the team, aka try to win with a Vinny Testaverde type, it's probably not the worst result for Mac to be only a mid QB.

But the Patriots strength is based on their defense and they typically don't invest a lot in the offense and are terrible at drafting WR talent.

So how are the Patriotss going to catch up to the rest of the league if their QB can't 'elevate' mediocre to poor WR talent like a certain TB12 used to do?

It's really hard to say other than the defense has to play out of their minds to get wins, and we'll probably still lose when it counts in the postseason because by that point you're ONLY playing against top teams and top tier Quarterbacks.

So Mac Jones either evolves to the next level next season, or it's time to go back to the draft and look for a better option. Either that or you trade for Lamar Jackson, but I have a feeling we're not going into that direction because we want to see what Mac can do first. I just don't know what franchise level QB will be available for trade next year IF Mac fails.

If Mac fails then it's back to the draft to try again like most NFL teams do until they find their man. Only problem is as long as BB is here the Patriots aren't going to bottom out to give them a real shot at an elite QB prospect. Trade might be an option but why would a team trade a franchise level QB to us or anyone else?

 

[VJCPatriot]

If Mac fails then it's back to the draft to try again like most NFL teams do until they find their man. Only problem is as long as BB is here the Patriots aren't going to bottom out to give them a real shot at an elite QB prospect. Trade might be an option but why would a team trade a franchise level QB to us or anyone else?

There's really only two options when you are in that position:

1. Find a disgruntled franchise level QB and trade multiple draft assets for him.

2. Gamble in the draft, and again trade multiple draft assets over multiple years to move UP and get the guy you feel is going to be 'the guy'.

Either option can be a risk.

1 - With the disgruntled franchise QB scenario, at least he has proven himself in the league so it's a lower risk proposition but you have to pay him his market value salary which is usually very high.

2 - But with the second option you get a guy on a rookie deal who hopefully can develop in 2 years so you get 2 years of 'underpaid elite QB play' to spend money to build up the team around him.

 

[sb1]

And what proof do you have of this? Zappe handily outperformed Mac Jones last year .

I wouldn't go that far. The playcalling for these guys wasn't the same, in fact the real comparison should be Zappe 2022 vs Mac in his rookie year because the offenses were a lot more comparable...and Mac wins that comparison. Zappe still had only one game I'd call good out of 4. I guess that's not bad for a rookie backup but it was nowhere near the level that should have gotten Mac benched permanently. It's not like he went all Tom Brady on the league. His high YAC number (6.9 in his "good" game) says a lot about the defenses he was facing, meaning he wasn't exactly throwing to guys who were tightly covered and/or those defenses didn't tackle well.

Mac is the better QB and I expect that to still be the case coming out of camp.

 

[lancerman]

And what proof do you have of this? Zappe handily outperformed Mac Jones last year and didn't get nearly the same amount of opportunities. He had one bad performance against the Bears but guess what Mac Jones was 3/6 for 13 piddly yards against the Bears so he didn't cover himself in glory either. We won't know what Zappe is going to be until the two QBs get a chance to fairly compete in training camp for the starting job and then play a significant amount of minutes to give us a solid basis to judge their ability.

Now if your argument is that Mac is not good enough, well yes it sure looked that way last year. However I believe the offense is going to get a 'mulligan' and a chance to redeem themselves because of the absolute clown show that was the Matt Patricia/Joe Judge offense last year making everyone involved look bad.

Would I mind if the Patriots drafted a QB early to compete with Mac Jones and Zappe? I wouldn't because I don't have a lot of confidence in either guy. I just know statistically that Zappe clearly outplayed Mac but in a very limited sample size.

Sadly the team is just unlikely to spend a high enough draft pick to get a high ceiling QB prospect when Mac is still in year 3 of his contract and we already spent a 1st rounder on him. BB will give MAC10 every chance to justify that high draft pick before looking for a replacement.

No he didn't lol. In the one game you can compare them both in they sucked. He had one game where he played meh with a defense posting a shut out. Basically he has the Cleveland game.

It's total nonsense to say Zappe handedly outplayed anyone

 

[sb1]

No he didn't lol. In the one game you can compare them both in they sucked. He had one game where he played meh with a defense posting a shut out. Basically he has the Cleveland game.

It's total nonsense to say Zappe handedly outplayed anyone

Yeah that was the Lions game. The defense gave him six fourth down stops and he only managed 188 yards with that with 1 TD and 1 INT.

Mac could have done that. And Brady would have blown them right out of the stadium at halftime.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

If Mac fails then it's back to the draft to try again like most NFL teams do until they find their man. Only problem is as long as BB is here the Patriots aren't going to bottom out to give them a real shot at an elite QB prospect. Trade might be an option but why would a team trade a franchise level QB to us or anyone else?

Finding a franchise QB involves a good deal of luck. Drafting high in the first round is not a guarantee. Signing a good/great QB as a FA costs too much and the player is likely past their prime. Trades are also tough. The only way a team trades what becomes a franchise QB is if it is a hidden gem stuck behind an elite QB ala Favre, or is a fallen angel like Geno Smith (sort of).

 

[VJCPatriot]

No he didn't lol. In the one game you can compare them both in they sucked.

Unfortunately for you - Game logs exist in the NFL.

Bailey Zappe stats courtesy of ESPN
vs Green Bay 10/2 107.4 rating,
vs Detroit 10/9 100.0 rating,
vs Cleveland 10/16 118.4 rating
vs Chicago 10/24 [worst game] 67.4 rating
Season Rating 100.9

Mac Jones stats courtesy of ESPN
87.2, 79.7, 62.1, 16.7, 79.9, 89.2, 104.6, 119.8, 84.8, 75.3, 52.1, 105.6, 98.6, 75.3
Season Rating 84.8

I'm not a math major but 100.9 > 84.8.

Mac Jones had the lion's share of opportunities because of his higher draft status but clearly got outperformed by Zappe in terms of actual game performance ratings.

 

[Wozzy]

Finding a franchise QB involves a good deal of luck. Drafting high in the first round is not a guarantee. Signing a good/great QB as a FA costs too much and the player is likely past their prime. Trades are also tough. The only way a team trades what becomes a franchise QB is if it is a hidden gem stuck behind an elite QB ala Favre, or is a fallen angel like Geno Smith (sort of).

I'll just say this... some teams are great, at not only finding rookie talent but developing it regardless of position... other teams aren't.

I don't think Geno Smith was a bad draft pick, the Jets were a dumpster fire and threw him to the wolves as a babe.

Even the best teams have fails in the draft, that's the nature of the draft.

The average NFL career lasts three years, 1/3 of the league is made up of UDFA's.

It's a hard job at any position, especially after heaping years and years of abuse from high school to college on top of it.

 

[lancerman]

Unfortunately for you - Game logs exist in the NFL.

Bailey Zappe stats courtesy of ESPN
vs Green Bay 10/2 107.4 rating,
vs Detroit 10/9 100.0 rating,
vs Cleveland 10/16 118.4 rating
vs Chicago 10/24 [worst game] 67.4 rating
Season Rating 100.9

Mac Jones stats courtesy of ESPN
87.2, 79.7, 62.1, 16.7, 79.9, 89.2, 104.6, 119.8, 84.8, 75.3, 52.1, 105.6, 98.6, 75.3
Season Rating 84.8

I'm not a math major but 100.9 > 84.8.

Mac Jones had the lion's share of opportunities because of his higher draft status but clearly got outperformed by Zappe in terms of actual game performance ratings.

That's cool. Now we realize they you know how to look up passer rating. That's truly an insightful and meaningful stat to compare 2 and 3/4 games to the other 14+.

Now maybe we can compare opponents, the defense, what he actually... you know... did.

Because basically what I'm seeing is Zappe came in against two mediocre teams, watched his defense pitch a shutout while he did the bare minimum but go solid efficiency numbers, had a decent game against Cleveland and then **** his pants when he was put in a comparable situation to Mac for the first time.

 

[sb1]

vs Green Bay 10/2 107.4 rating,

Broncos 17-10 Chiefs (Nov 13, 2011) Box Score - ESPN

Box score for the Denver Broncos vs. Kansas City Chiefs NFL game from November 13, 2011 on ESPN. Includes all passing, rushing and receiving stats.

www.espn.com

Tim Tebow 8 attempts...2 completions...and a 102 rating Says it all.

Doesn't say anything about how in that GB game Zappe threw maybe half of his 15 passes past the LOS and threw for less than 100 yards against a weak defense. Not all "107" passer ratings are created equally.

 

[sb1]

That's cool. Now we realize they you know how to look up passer rating. That's truly an insightful and meaningful stat to compare 2 and 3/4 games to the other 14+.

Now maybe we can compare opponents, the defense, what he actually... you know... did.

Because basically what I'm seeing is Zappe came in against two mediocre teams, watched his defense pitch a shutout while he did the bare minimum but go solid efficiency numbers, had a decent game against Cleveland and then **** his pants when he was put in a comparable situation to Mac for the first time.

Mike White threw for 400 yards in a game once. That's way better than Zappe's best. White is not an NFL starting QB.