The optimistic case for Mac Jones

[Wozzy]

Even you think it's about Brady. You just said so. Excellent post!

No team can win with bad QB play, literally nobody said that. There’s a good number of QB’s that could have gone to Tampa in 2020 and won it all.

If Eli can beat Tom twice, and Nick Foles can beat him once, it takes more than the best QB. It takes the best team.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

He sees his coaches every day and yet stuck with Matt and Judge all last season.

Changing coaches and schemes is different than using different players. BB acknowledged the situation when he said that it was too hard to make those kind of changes mid season. I remember being corrected by some of the more knowledgeable posters when I suggested that Caley should start calling plays when it became clear that things were not working. The fact that there was no ability to reverse course once the season started is why the MP experiment was so painful.

 

[archstanton543]

Changing coaches and schemes is different than using different players. BB acknowledged the situation when he said that it was too hard to make those kind of changes mid season. I remember being corrected by some of the more knowledgeable posters when I suggested that Caley should start calling plays when it became clear that things were not working. The fact that there was no ability to reverse course once the season started is why the MP experiment was so painful.

Teams fire OC's mid season all the time.

 

[Wozzy]

And I wonder how good that game really was. Was it really Zappe or should his receivers get more credit? Zappe had just under 7 YAC per completion. That's a big number. Stretched out to a full season that would put him just behind Jimmy G for the most in the league. Nobody else is close.

Zappe was also exceptional in the Packers game and would have won had his terrible offensive coordinator let him pass in the final minutes. He was dealing all game.

Pretty much the only game he wasn’t exceptional was the Bears game where he entered, engineered two TD drives after the offense did nothing all game. Then his entire team fell apart, especially the defense and play calling.

It was also wet and rainy out, the 13th best QB above according to Matt Cassel’s popularity contest Justin Fields fumbled the ball five times.



This doesn’t mean he’s destined for greatness, but saying he’s not or can’t become just “good” is equally as dumb.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Teams fire OC's mid season all the time.

Not teams with playoff aspirations. Firing the OC mid season is the equivalent of throwing in the towel for the year. It happens when a team is a complete train wreck and the head coach is looking for a scapegoat. JJ firing Jason Garrett in November is a good example.

 

[RIpats88]

Not teams with playoff aspirations. Firing the OC mid season is the equivalent of throwing in the towel for the year. It happens when a team is a complete train wreck and the head coach is looking for a scapegoat. JJ firing Jason Garrett in November is a good example.

We threw the towel in on the year when we hired Patricia in the first place. And sticking with him all year.

 

[sb1]

Zappe was also exceptional in the Packers game and would have won had his terrible offensive coordinator let him pass in the final minutes. He was dealing all game.

Pretty much the only game he wasn’t exceptional was the Bears game where he entered, engineered two TD drives after the offense did nothing all game. Then his entire team fell apart, especially the defense and play calling.

It was also wet and rainy out, the 13th best QB above according to Matt Cassel’s popularity contest Justin Fields fumbled the ball five times.



This doesn’t mean he’s destined for greatness, but saying he’s not or can’t become just “good” is equally as dumb.

I’ll give him a pass as it was his first appearance but I don’t think he threw half of his 15 passes all game past the line of scrimmage in the packers game. Less than 100 yards passing against a weak defense.
He’d have to throw a lot more than 15 passes to be “exceptional” to me.

He was also far from exceptional in the Lions game.

What I saw was a backup QB doing a nice job in relief of the starter. That’s it. I didn’t see a guy who has the talent to ever be a starting QB in this league.

 

[Wozzy]

Gotta give the people what they want.


I think hes a little low If this is strictly off the last year or two but it's not terrible. He's probably ahead of Wilson, Dalton and closer to Fields and Geno than this. I'm assuming this has some projection mixed in bc of Lawrence, Watson and Fields.

His first year he was an average NFL QB (very good for a rookie) right around 15-18 and was bottom 10 last year. Not outrageous but a little low.

These lists are absurd.

The Eagles GM does an incredible job assembling the best roster in the NFL, and that makes Jalen Hurts "better" than Burrows, Herbert and Rogers... just silly. Josh Allen we were told was the MVP all season, that he was Jesus and Buddha all rolled into one... but with the gift of results he falls to #4. Lamar Jackson at #6.... lol, based on what? Did he even play this season? Goff easily had one of the best O-Lines and group of weapons in the NFC if not league, his D sucked... but he's the same exact QB who couldn't make changes at the line of scrimmage pre-snap against the Patriots in the Super Bowl... how is he better than Carr or a bunch of guys behind him. Justin Fields at 13th... really? He's ahead of Purdy even. Fields won 3 games this year, he threw 11 interceptions and fumbled the ball 16 times! But he runs the ball so he's exciting to watch I guess. Meanwhile Brock Purdy was undefeated (5-0) as a regular season starter his rookie year, he completed 67% of his passes, 13 TD's/4 INT's and a 107 QB Rating... if his name was Brady those numbers wouldn't be shocking and he'd be ranked a lot higher. Stafford's was the reason the Rams won the Super Bowl last year, but this year with the worst O-Line in the NFL he was 19th best... okay. Deshaun Watson at 24th... I guess being a sexual deviant predator makes you a worse player.

At the bottom row of that list is young prospects who haven't proven anything yet I guess. I would take the unknown of Mac Jones, Kenny Pickett, Davis Mills, Mike White and Desmond Ridder over the known of Lamar Jackson, Jared Goff, Daniel Jones, Andy Dalton and Jacoby Brissett everyday and twice on Sundays. But my goal is to win a championship... not sell a lot of jerseys or be just good enough to get to the playoffs and get bounced in the first round.

Maybe it's just lists I despise...

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Zappe has started 2 games and played in 4 games.

Idiotic to close the door on Zappe with so little information. The peanut gallery is telling me that Jones arm is great while also saying that Zappes arm is worst.

Noone is closing the door. What is idiotic is to complain about Mac's arm while saying Zappe is the solution. Both arms are fine. No need to criticize Mac or Zappe, let it play out. Let's have intelligent discussions here.

 

[archstanton543]

Not teams with playoff aspirations. Firing the OC mid season is the equivalent of throwing in the towel for the year. It happens when a team is a complete train wreck and the head coach is looking for a scapegoat. JJ firing Jason Garrett in November is a good example.

The team was a train wreck outside of the defense.

All teams have playoff aspirations. After the Zappe/Mac thing it was pretty clear this team was, at best, a borderline playoff team. Winning in KC or Buffalo was a never going to happen. A change at OC could have lit a spark that got them that extra win or two to actually make it.

Maybe making a switch stops the lateral party in Vegas because the players didn't think they had to do something extra to win?

 

[RIpats88]

Zappe was also exceptional in the Packers game and would have won had his terrible offensive coordinator let him pass in the final minutes. He was dealing all game.

Pretty much the only game he wasn’t exceptional was the Bears game where he entered, engineered two TD drives after the offense did nothing all game. Then his entire team fell apart, especially the defense and play calling.

It was also wet and rainy out, the 13th best QB above according to Matt Cassel’s popularity contest Justin Fields fumbled the ball five times.



This doesn’t mean he’s destined for greatness, but saying he’s not or can’t become just “good” is equally as dumb.

Exceptional is a strong word for the Packers game. He did his job well and kept us in the game. But let's not have revisionist history that he was "dealing"

Of course he can become good and improve. And I hope he does! It's just the absurd and over the top praise and obsession with this guy over a stretch that was okay to promising and that he must be the starter is just bizarre. And taking sides on two young QBs who are still developing just doesn't make any sense.

Mac still has a chance to improve and prove he's the starter. Zappe has that chance as well this summer.

It's as if people never have seen backup QBs go on a stretch and win games before. Doesn't necessarily translate to "bench the starter! The backup is a star!"

The NFL scrap heap is littered with QBs who have had longer and BETTER stretches than zappes. Cooper rush for one this year. Taylor heineke dueled Brady in a playoff game and now is on the bench. Minshew mania! I can go on and on.

Let's let it play itself out.

It's as if half the board only watched Brady patriots games their whole life. And the minute a backup does "okay" he's the next Brady.

 

[RIpats88]

The team was a train wreck outside of the defense.

All teams have playoff aspirations. After the Zappe/Mac thing it was pretty clear this team was, at best, a borderline playoff team. Winning in KC or Buffalo was a never going to happen. A change at OC could have lit a spark that got them that extra win or two to actually make it.

Maybe making a switch stops the lateral party in Vegas because the players didn't think they had to do something extra to win?

I don't get the argument of "let's stick with garbage because we don't want to make a change we have playoff aspirations"

It's clear the Patricia offense wasn't getting the team anywhere. Actually it was evident in training camp when the media was shocked how bad it looked.

I don't think people realize how bad Patricia was on offense. This wasn't an OC just being bad. This was basically giving a preschooler a crayon and putting them in a college ap art class bad.

 

[Wozzy]

I’ll give him a pass as it was his first appearance but I don’t think he threw half of his 15 passes all game past the line of scrimmage in the packers game. Less than 100 yards passing against a weak defense.
He’d have to throw a lot more than 15 passes to be “exceptional” to me.

He was also far from exceptional in the Lions game.

What I saw was a backup QB doing a nice job in relief of the starter. That’s it. I didn’t see a guy who has the talent to ever be a starting QB in this league.

Zappe's 301 passing yards against the Browns was the 2nd highest passing total they gave up the entire season. It was also the 2nd highest scoring total the defense allowed all season, along with the highest point total the Pat's offense scored all season. The Browns played Brady, Tua and his super weapons, Herbert, Burrow (twice), Josh Allen and the incomparable MVP Lamar Jackson.

He was exceptional in the Lions game and Packers game as well, especially as a rookie. It wasn't Zappe's decision to pass less, it was his coaches. When the Browns crowded the line of scrimmage and played eight men in the box to stop the run he absolutely shredded them... this with the same bozo calling offensive plays.

Many Pat's fans are negative Nancys who tell us all our talent sucks... I think it's a defense mechanism.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

The team was a train wreck outside of the defense.

All teams have playoff aspirations. After the Zappe/Mac thing it was pretty clear this team was, at best, a borderline playoff team. Winning in KC or Buffalo was a never going to happen. A change at OC could have lit a spark that got them that extra win or two to actually make it.

Maybe making a switch stops the lateral party in Vegas because the players didn't think they had to do something extra to win?

Not all teams have a legitimate chance at making the playoffs, the Pats were in it to the last game. I understand your point, at mid season I wanted to give Caley a try only to have multiple posters who know more about football than I do, explain that it was not feasible to change that late in the season. BB said the same thing so I changed my opinion based on new information. It is ok to disagree.

 

[Ollie]

Noone is closing the door. What is idiotic is to complain about Mac's arm while saying Zappe is the solution. Both arms are fine. No need to criticize Mac or Zappe, let it play out. Let's have intelligent discussions here.

Hallelujah. This x1000. The ridiculousness of only being able to see the positives of one whilst thinking the other clearly isn't the answer just baffles me. People seemingly can only handle polarised thought processes these days Zappe good means Mac bad. Brady good means Belichek bad. There is 0 nuance, context or intelligence applied.

 

[Wozzy]

Exceptional is a strong word for the Packers game. He did his job well and kept us in the game. But let's not have revisionist history that he was "dealing"

Of course he can become good and improve. And I hope he does! It's just the absurd and over the top praise and obsession with this guy over a stretch that was okay to promising and that he must be the starter is just bizarre. And taking sides on two young QBs who are still developing just doesn't make any sense.

Mac still has a chance to improve and prove he's the starter. Zappe has that chance as well this summer.

It's as if people never have seen backup QBs go on a stretch and win games before. Doesn't necessarily translate to "bench the starter! The backup is a star!"

The NFL scrap heap is littered with QBs who have had longer and BETTER stretches than zappes. Cooper rush for one this year. Taylor heineke dueled Brady in a playoff game and now is on the bench. Minshew mania! I can go on and on.

Let's let it play itself out.

It's as if half the board only watched Brady patriots games their whole life. And the minute a backup does "okay" he's the next Brady.

The coaches limited his pass attempts, it wasn't based on Zappe's performance.

And no, nobody is saying Zappe is the next Brady, we're just saying calling him a "career backup" is dumb.

Literally nobody here knew who Brock Purdy was when Jimmy G got hurt, and everyone said the 49ers season was over. It wasn't over until the Eagle's snapped Brock Purdy's elbow ligament.

Only one side of this debate is saying they can see the future of Zappe (or Mac for that matter), the rest of us are saying there's no evidence for career backup or mediocre labels. The future is unwritten...

 

[archstanton543]

I don't get the argument of "let's stick with garbage because we don't want to make a change we have playoff aspirations"

It's clear the Patricia offense wasn't getting the team anywhere. Actually it was evident in training camp when the media was shocked how bad it looked.

I don't think people realize how bad Patricia was on offense. This wasn't an OC just being bad. This was basically giving a preschooler a crayon and putting them in a college ap art class bad.

Yeah, I mean, the signs were there in TC. There was time to make a change before the season actually started. BB chose not to. The rest is history.

 

[sb1]

Yeah, I mean, the signs were there in TC. There was time to make a change before the season actually started. BB chose not to. The rest is history.

Would have been tough to blow it all up right before opening day. Not sure there’s precedent for that working out well.

 

[sb1]

The coaches limited his pass attempts, it wasn't based on Zappe's performance.

And no, nobody is saying Zappe is the next Brady, we're just saying calling him a "career backup" is dumb.

Literally nobody here knew who Brock Purdy was when Jimmy G got hurt, and everyone said the 49ers season was over. It wasn't over until the Eagle's snapped Brock Purdy's elbow ligament.

Only one side of this debate is saying they can see the future of Zappe (or Mac for that matter), the rest of us are saying there's no evidence for career backup or mediocre labels. The future is unwritten...

I’m not sure the #TeamZappe side of the argument is really all in on Zappe or they just don’t like Mac Jones. I suspect it’s the latter. I bet if the Patriots sign a big name vet then the Zappe bandwagon will clear out.

I’m wait and see on Mac but only for this season. He won’t get the benefit of the doubt more than this one time. I don’t want to see any more hysterics either and I’m guessing Bill feels the same way.

 

[sb1]

Zappe's 301 passing yards against the Browns was the 2nd highest passing total they gave up the entire season. It was also the 2nd highest scoring total the defense allowed all season, along with the highest point total the Pat's offense scored all season. The Browns played Brady, Tua and his super weapons, Herbert, Burrow (twice), Josh Allen and the incomparable MVP Lamar Jackson.

He was exceptional in the Lions game and Packers game as well, especially as a rookie. It wasn't Zappe's decision to pass less, it was his coaches. When the Browns crowded the line of scrimmage and played eight men in the box to stop the run he absolutely shredded them... this with the same bozo calling offensive plays.

Many Pat's fans are negative Nancys who tell us all our talent sucks... I think it's a defense mechanism.

In the Lions game Zappe and the offense were given 6 fourth down stops by the defense and he only managed 188 yards and one TD out of that. The offense didn’t look any better to me in that game than they had all season up to that point. Exceptional only if the standard is a backup rookie making his first career start. Imo