The mediots know that the Pats won a SB without Jones & Collins, right?

[brdmaverick]

Past performance doesn't guarantee future results, but it is the single best leading indicator.... which is all it needs to be.

As for the "this is DIFFERENT!" claim, you could have said the same thing about the OL in 2014. That worked out ok.

I think we all have to understand that there is a middle ground to this conversation.

There is more than just the two sides of.........

"The sky is falling and queue the Jim Mora 'playoffs' rant."

and

"Don't worry, everything is great!"

There can be a middle ground of people who still believe the Patriots will be better than what they've shown but want to have intellectual conversation about some glaring concerns that have arisen.


The OL in 2014 that you bring up is a perfect example. You're right, they did turn it around magnificently, but at the same time would you deny that it was a concern and worthy of discussion in the first month?

 

[Ring 6]

Pointless? Only in the literal sense that ANYTHING and EVERYTHING we talk about on this message board has no effect on the outcomes of Pats games. But this is a message board where fans come to enjoy conversation with others who are just as passionate as ourselves. To suggest that "expectations vs results" should have no influence on the tone of conversations is just crazy.

Let's put it this way, if the Pats AND Browns both started 0-4 I would expect more of a 'state of shock' on the Pats message board and more of a 'ho hum, maybe 2020' mentality in the Browns forum.

Yet they would both be 0-4.

Which is why I'm actually not one of the ones hitting the panic button. Am I shocked? Sure, any rational fan would be. Do I think they'll turn it around? Sure. I'm also just stating that while I think they'll turn it around I do understand those other fans exuding more concern than others. It's a forum to talk about our team.....and they haven't looked good.....so it's worthy of discussion.

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't discuss how the defense has gotten off to a historically bad start?

I am saying people are overreacting.
You are actually treating 2-2 like a bigger problem than 2-2 despite the talent. This team has less reason to be concerned that 2 early losses will derail their season than anyone else.

This team has also proven it identifies problems and fixes them.

 

[obgod3]

I dont think anyone is overreacting, we have a defense that is giving up more yards than any team in the league, including that awful Indy team, the pats giving up 456 yards a game 50 more than Indy, think about that. It is a quarter through the season with no positives to really acknowledge. This is not a team that will beat the Falcons, Denver or Pittsburg meaning they possibly end up 11-5 or 10-6 and unless this defense improves miraculously they really have little chance to win a championship. There are no trades, free agents or talent available to help. They wont get cake-walk defenses to play against int he playoffs and the defense will cost them. I dont think think the media is missing anything. Cant have it all every year. Is the sky falling, I dont know and I do believe they can improve but enough to win a SB I dont know that either, Offense can only hang in so long though. I hope Im wrong.

 

[A Defiant Goose]

We won withou5 Collins but let's be real here. We are extremely lucky Hightower didn't get injured and expose our poor depth at LB after Collins release. That was really my biggest problem with getting rid of him. We put a lot of faith in HT remaining healthy throughout the season. It paid off. It hasn't been paying off this year

 

[brdmaverick]

Yet they would both be 0-4.

Right, but this whole discussion started because of your issue with the fan reaction of our record/quality of play. If the Browns and Pats were both 2-2, the Pats fans would be concerned (as they are) and Browns fans would be elated.......and yet they would still be 2-2. That doesn't mean that fans can't or shouldn't react based on expectations.

I realize the team has talent. I realize there is a good chance that they'll turn it around. I also knew what talent they had during the preseason as well, and that's why I'm surprised the team started so poorly (at least on defense).

Let's put it this way, if someone asked you this going into week 1 "Would it shock you if the Patriots suffered at least two losses in the first month and also statistically had one of the worst defenses in the league?"

I think we would all say "YES"

Well, that's happened, so we're naturally reacting to it.

That does not mean we don't have faith of a turnaround, must merely voicing concern. I think it's a healthy reaction (by most at least). I don't see people calling for BB to be fired or for Brady to be benched. When I see that then I'll agree that's gone too far.

 

[Tony2046]

@AndyJohnson - How do you end up in these hair splitting arguments?

2-2 is or isn't different than 2-2 ?????

Holy cow man.

 

[Ring 6]

Right, but this whole discussion started because of your issue with the fan reaction of our record/quality of play. If the Browns and Pats were both 2-2, the Pats fans would be concerned (as they are) and Browns fans would be elated.......and yet they would still be 2-2. That doesn't mean that fans can't or shouldn't react based on expectations.

I disagree. Games are played on the field not in expectations.
Sure you can be surprised but it doesn't change the facts.

I realize the team has talent. I realize there is a good chance that they'll turn it around. I also knew what talent they had during the preseason as well, and that's why I'm surprised the team started so poorly (at least on defense).

Let's put it this way, if someone asked you this going into week 1 "Would it shock you if the Patriots suffered at least two losses in the first month and also statistically had one of the worst defenses in the league?"

I think we would all say "YES"

Well, that's happened, so we're naturally reacting to it.

That does not mean we don't have faith of a turnaround, must merely voicing concern. I think it's a healthy reaction (by most at least). I don't see people calling for BB to be fired or for Brady to be benched. When I see that then I'll agree that's gone too far.

But your comment was being 2-2 is worse because if the expectations. It's not.
Some fans are very negative and have low expectations and others have unreasonably high ones. Which side they are in does not make the situation the team us in any different.

Btw people ARE calling for players to be benched, or cut, Patricia to be fired or have the defense taken away from him and calling players lazy and stupid as well as predicting 8-8, so it's not far from what you say.

 

[Ring 6]

@AndyJohnson - How do you end up in these hair splitting arguments?

2-2 is or isn't different than 2-2 ?????

Holy cow man.

I don't know. I thought it was obvious.

 

[Jackson 2]

Rob Ninkovich's interview on ESPN this morning was a little sobering to listen to. He cited the lack of experience among the new guys on defense with one another as a major problem that is largely going to take time. I expected him to say that it would soon be better. He didn't.

 

[Ring 6]

I dont think anyone is overreacting, we have a defense that is giving up more yards than any team in the league, including that awful Indy team, the pats giving up 456 yards a game 50 more than Indy, think about that. It is a quarter through the season with no positives to really acknowledge.

People are overreacting because they are taking the play in 4 games and turning it into future losses. They play in the first 4 games = 2-2. They don't start game 5 down a score. They have to go play the rest of the games.

This is not a team that will beat the Falcons, Denver or Pittsburg meaning they possibly end up 11-5 or 10-6

See what I mean.

and unless this defense improves miraculously they really have little chance to win a championship.

It doesn't have to improve miraculously it has to stop the broken coverages and make a couple more plays to get off the field. Busted coverages are accounting for about a TD a game. One extra stop per fand brings it down to 20 or under. It's not as far away as you want to believe.

[/quote]There are no trades, free agents or talent available to help. [/quote]
There is already plenty of talent here. As much as the #1 defense last year had.

They wont get cake-walk defenses to play against int he playoffs and the defense will cost them. I dont think think the media is missing anything. Cant have it all every year. Is the sky falling, I dont know and I do believe they can iimprove but enough to win a SB I dont know that either, Offense can only hang in so long though. I hope Im wrong.

It really doesn't matter if you are right it wrong because they have to go out on the field and play the games. If communication is fixed the broken coverages that happened in the first 4 games are irrelevant. I will never believe bill belichick can't fix that issue.
Relax and enjoy the ride.

 

[brdmaverick]

I disagree. Games are played on the field not in expectations.

Right, but fan reaction is driven off both, and I think you would agree with that.

After all, if your personal fan reaction was based strictly on the 'games played on the field' I think you'd see there is a lot NOT to like.

But you expect them to turn it around, and hence your personal expectations have you taking more comfort with the start than others.

And sure, 2-2 certainly is nowhere near the end of the world. I think we can all agree that the bar here is extremely high, Super Bowl or Bust! With a bar that high I think most of us would admit that we are spoiled. When we watch games I'm sure we're all not just thinking, 'can we win this game' but instead also thinking 'does this team look like they can win a Super Bowl'? Because they haven't looked like a Super Bowl-winning team I think our minds have to be re-calibrated to go back to the approach of 'can we win this game?'

I agree that calling for Patricia to be fired or certain players to be benched is a little too far for my liking, but I certainly understand the frustration. So maybe some are going a little overboard with their knee-jerk reactions.

 

[Ring 6]

Right, but fan reaction is driven off both, and I think you would agree with that.

After all, if your personal fan reaction was based strictly on the 'games played on the field' I think you'd see there is a lot NOT to like.

But you expect them to turn it around, and hence your personal expectations have you taking more comfort with the start than others.

And sure, 2-2 certainly is nowhere near the end of the world. I think we can all agree that the bar here is extremely high, Super Bowl or Bust! With a bar that high I think most of us would admit that we are spoiled. When we watch games I'm sure we're all not just thinking, 'can we win this game' but instead also thinking 'does this team look like they can win a Super Bowl'? Because they haven't looked like a Super Bowl-winning team I think our minds have to be re-calibrated to go back to the approach of 'can we win this game?'

I agree that calling for Patricia to be fired or certain players to be benched is a little too far for my liking, but I certainly understand the frustration. So maybe some are going a little overboard with their knee-jerk reactions.

We just see this 180 degrees differently.
You don't win a SB in September or October. All that matters from sept and oct is what goes into the w and l column.
Things that are happening today, good or bad, won't have any impact in December. Whether they are better worse or the same by then will.

Some teams improve some get worse and there really is no formula in determining that other than the track record of the coaching staff and players.

If the defense plays like this in December the team is screwed but that isn't going to happen.

All of the handwringing drives me crazy. It's like a good salesman having a bad month and then freaking out that all of sudden he forgot how to do his job.

Let the season play out.

 

[luuked]

Past results doesn't guarantee future results. The D has never been this bad during the previous 2-2 starts ( 01, 03, 14).

Just in case you missed the irony of ****ing contradicting yourself within one sentence. Congrats..

 

[luuked]

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't discuss how the defense has gotten off to a historically bad start?

Except you guys have no meaningful discussion. Its just an angry mob that circlejerks around the same things over and over again. There is nothing meaningful coming out of the man hours that you guys have wasted repeatedly calling Gilmore stupid.

Last year it was the Logan Ryan circlejerk, the year before Scott Chandler this year it is someone else. Nothing ever changes. All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again.

 

[brdmaverick]

Except you guys have no meaningful discussion. Its just an angry mob that circlejerks around the same things over and over again. There is nothing meaningful coming out of the man hours that you guys have wasted repeatedly calling Gilmore stupid.

Last year it was the Logan Ryan circlejerk, the year before Scott Chandler this year it is someone else. Nothing ever changes. All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again.

Surprisingly I'm actually not part of the angry mob, I just understand why the concerned/angry mob exists.

I have been guilty of voicing my disappointment with Dwayne Allen, but I never really thought he was the key to winning anyway.

The crowd definitely had it right when they blasted Duane Starks, though.

 

[luuked]

Surprisingly I'm actually not part of the angry mob, I just understand why the concerned/angry mob exists.

I have been guilty of voicing my disappointment with Dwayne Allen, but I never really thought he was the key to winning anyway.

The crowd definitely had it right when they blasted Duane Starks, though.

If you are not part of them then my bad - it is just the negativity that runs in circles and ultimately goes nowhere because no actual discussion takes place is just tiring. Anyone wanna discuss individual situations or wanna maybe learn about coverages and what not is welcome to join the rewatch crowd. The people in those threads at least puts their frustration into trying to understand why things go wrong.

I just dont understand what people gain from posting the same takes over and over again. Again it that is not you then my bad.

 

[brdmaverick]

Anyone wanna discuss individual situations or wanna maybe learn about coverages and what not is welcome to join the rewatch crowd. The people in those threads at least puts their frustration into trying to understand why things go wrong.

I agree, a really insightful post in that thread showed (with pics) how even on Butler's interception there was some luck involved and that they actually left a man open on that play.

The thought was that Butler dropped his man AFTER Newton passed the ball, but there is a still shot of Butler dropping coverage on his man to help the deep pass while Newton still had the ball (and not yet in a throwing motion).

I suppose we could say he 'read his eyes' and made the play, but the bottom line is that the poster's analysis was really insightful.

 

[obgod3]

OBGOD3: This is not a team that will beat the Falcons, Denver or Pittsburg meaning they possibly end up 11-5 or 10-6

AndyJohnson: See what I mean.

Well they wont, not like this and if your honest with yourself Im guessing you wouldn't bet real cash on them in any of these games. By no means am I saying it is impossible but it is unlikely.

It doesn't have to improve miraculously it has to stop the broken coverages and make a couple more plays to get off the field. Busted coverages are accounting for about a TD a game. One extra stop per fand brings it down to 20 or under. It's not as far away as you want to believe.

Hope your right but I think your wrong.

There is already plenty of talent here. As much as the #1 defense last year had.

Agree/Disagree with that, I do think there is talent there, other folks have speculated looking for help. The only help they need is to perform, communicate. But more than anything Leadership is a huge part of talent, we absolutely lost some of that this year. I do think Gilmore was a mistake and that could be a huge issue and he might even be a divisive player for the team. Something to watch.

Relax and enjoy the ride.

Thats not an issue for me. Part of me has lost interest after 45 years watching and SB51. Cheers!