The 7-man offensive line

[Deus Irae]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

One of the major issues in this line is that Belichick thought that Connolly was much better than he is. Clearly, injuries on the OL need to be prepared for. Belichick drafted a 2010 prospect in Ohrnberger and relied on Connolly as a backup at both guard and center. I don't think he's been up to the task.

So, then, do you think he pulled the trigger on Hochstein a year too early?

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

He can't be classified as a starter, because he's not one. Until he starts over one of the five when they are healthy, he's a backup. Of course, if you want to claim that Connolly is a starter and stretch that way as well, just so you can pump up Vollmer for no real reason, you should feel free to do so. It won't really fit the way people usually mean starter, but don't let that stop you.

Using your logic, Cassel wasn't Brady's backup last year, because he started all but one game. That's fine in some contexts, but it's not fine when you're laying out the personnel at the start of the season. In the general usage of the word a player is a backup unless he plays over the healthy former starter.

Yes I can see your point that you can say that Vollmer is not a starter because he has not started when all other 5 linemen were healthy. He's started 5 games this year so he can be in the same catagory as a starter.

Using my logic last year both Cassel and Brady's were starters, which they were. I am pumping up Vollmer with reason, his play on the field has speaked for itself.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

Yes I can see your point that you can say that Vollmer is not a starter because he has not started when all other 5 linemen were healthy. He's started 5 games this year so he can be in the same catagory as a starter.

Using my logic last year both Cassel and Brady's were starters, which they were. I am pumping up Vollmer with reason, his play on the field has speaked for itself.

Yes, using your logic, the Patriot had 2 starting QBs last season. Obviously, as a general rule, that's absurd, since no team in the league starts 2 QBs. That's why the context is important.

As for Vollmer, the fact that he had help on most snaps against the Colts also speaks for itself as well, yet you first denied/questioned it, and later tried to diminish it.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

It's the coaches, not the offensive line. Dante and O'Brien need to look at things closely.

The Phins were firing off on the ball before our lineman were. We are predictable on offense. Not only do defenses know when we're running or throwing, they know when we're hiking the ball (with 1 second left on the play clock). Brady points out the MLB, steps back, lifts his foot once, lifts his foot twice, one second on the clock. Like clockwork, pardon the pun.

The OL loses its natural advantage. The tape doesn't lie, and when you couple this with NFL rules that allow defenders to move prior to the snap as long as they're not in the neutral zone (but disallows OL) then it looks like our OL is being outmatched. I don't blame any of the lineman (well, Kaczur has looked like a matador on occasion) but rather the predictability.

I'm sorry, but when the Pats' o-line can't handle a 3 man rush and you see defenders outpower a double team with ease as I saw several times on Sunday, it isn't all on the coaching. Starks owned Koppen and Connelly on several double teams. No matter how predictable the offense is, one defender shouldn't have that much ease against two blockers even if he has the jump.

Besides, even if the defenders know the play ( a large number of plays for any team the defense already pretty much knows if a team is going to run or pass even if the offense is predictable), they shouldn't get a jump on the o-lineman. Predictable offensive play calling has nothing to do with the snap count. The o-line knows the count and the defense doesn't unless that is equally as predictable.

Complaining about the offense being predictable at least at times is a legitimate gripe. It isn't legitimate to argue, 3 man rushes are outpowering 5-7 blockers because the offense is predictable.

 

[MVPatsfan13]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

So the name of the thread is "The 7 Man Offensive Line" and we can now only talk about the "starting" 5 because somebody besides the OP says so??? **** that.
Vollmer is a starting quality tackle who started 5 games for us and Light started the season and will end the season as a starter. Enough of the cat fight over semantics

Im glad somebody brought up TE Matthews earlier. I was thinking he would be well used here and was suprised we let him go, though he did seem to be having trouble picking up his assignments. Having him in blocking and Watson out on routes in the EZ instead of Aiken(though I do like him all-around), might have helped our RZ troubles this year(in 3+ receiver sets) and/or having him blocking on short-yardage situtations(6'4, 270).
But back to the 7 OL. I was impressed with how Levoir played aerlier this year and was hoping to see him tried out at RT, regardless of injuries. I just feel like Kaczur doesnt have the length.

 

[upstater1]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

I'm sorry, but when the Pats' o-line can't handle a 3 man rush and you see defenders outpower a double team with ease as I saw several times on Sunday, it isn't all on the coaching. Starks owned Koppen and Connelly on several double teams. No matter how predictable the offense is, one defender shouldn't have that much ease against two blockers even if he has the jump.

Besides, even if the defenders know the play ( a large number of plays for any team the defense already pretty much knows if a team is going to run or pass even if the offense is predictable), they shouldn't get a jump on the o-lineman. Predictable offensive play calling has nothing to do with the snap count. The o-line knows the count and the defense doesn't unless that is equally as predictable.

Complaining about the offense being predictable at least at times is a legitimate gripe. It isn't legitimate to argue, 3 man rushes are outpowering 5-7 blockers because the offense is predictable.

Watch the tape again, I'm serious. The defense is firing off the ball faster than the OL. Unless we have the slowest reflexes of any OL in NFL history, something is seriously wrong.

Good point about the 3 man rushes.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

Yes, using your logic, the Patriot had 2 starting QBs last season. Obviously, as a general rule, that's absurd, since no team in the league starts 2 QBs. That's why the context is important.

As for Vollmer, the fact that he had help on most snaps against the Colts also speaks for itself as well, yet you first denied/questioned it, and later tried to diminish it.

You are avoiding the fact that Vollmer has played quite well this season. In the Colts game I first questioned whether he got help or not, after looking back at the game I realized that on some plays the Colts rushed 3 and that is where you see that Vollmer got help because 5 linemen blocking 3 rushers, 2 linemen are going to get help. On most plays Vollmer was 1 on 1 with Freeney and he shut him down.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

Watch the tape again, I'm serious. The defense is firing off the ball faster than the OL. Unless we have the slowest reflexes of any OL in NFL history, something is seriously wrong.

Good point about the 3 man rushes.

If the defense is firing off the line faster than the o-line, the snap count is predictable or the offense is getting out of their stance too slow. If a defender knows what the offense is going to run, but he doesn't know the snap count; he is either going to get a lot of neutral zone or offside penalties.

Besides, in pass blocking, the o-line is backing up rather than driving forward which a slower motion that driving forward which could give the illusion that the defense has a jump on the o-line.

Bottom line is that teams are going to play the Pats to stop the run first and let the Pats run the ball. They fear Brady, Moss, and Welker more than Maroney and Morris. That means most of the time the defenders are going to rush the line to get to Brady and deal with the RB when neccessary. That has to do with the predictabilty of the offense, but it also has to do with the fact that Brady can kill you with one throw if you give him the time as we saw the first 20 minutes of Sunday's game.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

You are avoiding the fact that Vollmer has played quite well this season. In the Colts game I first questioned whether he got help or not, after looking back at the game I realized that on some plays the Colts rushed 3 and that is where you see that Vollmer got help because 5 linemen blocking 3 rushers, 2 linemen are going to get help. On most plays Vollmer was 1 on 1 with Freeney and he shut him down.

1.) I'm not avoiding any fact, and you wrongfully claiming that I am doesn't make it so.

2.) On most plays, Vollmer was NOT 1 on 1 with Freeney. I think I may have said it was Reiss earlier, but it wasn't. However, this was gone over earlier, and Volmer had help on 36 of 44 pass attempts:

Sebastian Vollmer had help on Freeney 36 out of 44 passingattempts - Pats Pulpit

 

[vyrago]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

Maybe Brady was talking about the OL...since it seems to limit his and everyone elses options to ramp up their game.

If oline can't block a three-man rush then they aren't fighting very hard. His description certainly fits them.

Who or what was Welker pi$$ed at in the 2nd half when he appeared to be swearing at someone or something on the field?

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

1.) I'm not avoiding any fact, and you wrongfully claiming that I am doesn't make it so.

2.) On most plays, Vollmer was NOT 1 on 1 with Freeney. I think I may have said it was Reiss earlier, but it wasn't. However, this was gone over earlier, and Volmer had help on 36 of 44 pass attempts:

Sebastian Vollmer had help on Freeney 36 out of 44 passingattempts - Pats Pulpit

1. Why havent you ever said one positive thing about Vollmer on this forum?

2. I knew it wasnt Reiss. When a WR taps Freeney before going out to run a route, that isnt really help. Do you think Stanback running into Freeney has any effect on him? They never actually defined what the meant by help. It definitely doesnt mean that they doubled Freeney every play.That throws off the caluclation of 36 of 44 plays.

I am not saying Vollmer is the best LT in the NFL, but I am defending him since you're not giving him any credit. He is much quicker than Light, Light cant get out there as quick as Vollmer did on screens

 

[mgteich]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

The reason that this thread is labeled as the SEVEN man OL is that we need both TE's in blocking and have effectively taken them out of the game plan since they are needed to block.

So the name of the thread is "The 7 Man Offensive Line" and we can now only talk about the "starting" 5 because somebody besides the OP says so??? **** that.
Vollmer is a starting quality tackle who started 5 games for us and Light started the season and will end the season as a starter. Enough of the cat fight over semantics

Im glad somebody brought up TE Matthews earlier. I was thinking he would be well used here and was suprised we let him go, though he did seem to be having trouble picking up his assignments. Having him in blocking and Watson out on routes in the EZ instead of Aiken(though I do like him all-around), might have helped our RZ troubles this year(in 3+ receiver sets) and/or having him blocking on short-yardage situtations(6'4, 270).
But back to the 7 OL. I was impressed with how Levoir played aerlier this year and was hoping to see him tried out at RT, regardless of injuries. I just feel like Kaczur doesnt have the length.

 

[mgteich]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

No, I do not question when Belichick cuts a player who he thinks has no more left in the tank or who he thinks won't be of value to the team.

So, I don't question the decision to replace Hochstein and Yates. I just question whether he made the right choices in Connolly and Ohrnberger, especially given Neal's injury history and the contract situations of both Mankins and Neal.

So, then, do you think he pulled the trigger on Hochstein a year too early?

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

1. Why havent you ever said one positive thing about Vollmer on this forum?

First, most of my posts about Vollmer have been in comparison to Light. In fact, most of those have been because of your ridiculous ballwashing of Vollmer. I've generally ignored Vollmer because I've not found anything either spectacular or terrible about him to date. However, when Mayoclinic wrote:

Vollmer's done very well given his situation, but I'm not ready to put him 1 on 1 with Freeney yet ... not by any means.

My response was

Well put. I'd like to have Light back for this game.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/291319-official-vollmer-thread.html#post1584424

I think Mayo summed up my opinion on Vollmer's play quite nicely, and I made a point of noting that.

2. I knew it wasnt Reiss. When a WR taps Freeney before going out to run a route, that isnt really help. Do you think Stanback running into Freeney has any effect on him? They never actually defined what the meant by help. It definitely doesnt mean that they doubled Freeney every play.That throws off the caluclation of 36 of 44 plays.

Yes, when you remove the plays that Vollmer had help, the remaining plays will be the ones that he didn't have help on, and when you pretend that plays where help was given weren't plays where help was given, you can 'throw off' the calculation.

I am not saying Vollmer is the best LT in the NFL, but I am defending him since you're not giving him any credit. He is much quicker than Light, Light cant get out there as quick as Vollmer did on screens

We've been over this before, in other threads. You insist that Vollmer is better than Light. I disagree. You take that and move it up to me somehow not liking the Patriots:

...Do you even like this team? It seems like every post I read from you is negative.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/295648-now-lets-get-healthy.html#post1605251

Of course, your posts this week have made that thread, and especially the above line, extremely humorous, given your pullback regarding the team.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

No, I do not question when Belichick cuts a player who he thinks has no more left in the tank or who he thinks won't be of value to the team.

So, I don't question the decision to replace Hochstein and Yates. I just question whether he made the right choices in Connolly and Ohrnberger, especially given Neal's injury history and the contract situations of both Mankins and Neal.

I don't know of anyone questioning the Yates move. Hochstein was a bit different, which is why I asked you about him. However, your position here on cuts seems a bit inconsistent with your position on things like the Seymour trade. Maybe I'm misreading them in comparison?

 

[IcyPatriot]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

Watch the tape again, I'm serious. The defense is firing off the ball faster than the OL. Unless we have the slowest reflexes of any OL in NFL history, something is seriously wrong.

That would be on Brady then ... or the coordination with the coaches fot the playcall ... going down to the last second makes that firing off easier. I've been noticing some of that myself. One more thing that needs repair.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

Deus- The only positive thing you've said about Vollmer has been, "Well put" when another poster said that he has done a good job filling in for Light. You are not an open minded poster, why do you think everything you post on this fight ends up being a 7 page thread with you going back and forth with one person?

With that whole Colts game and Vollmer, what do you classify as help? A double team? A WR chipping Freeney before running a route? A screen call?

You have not given any reason as to why Light is better than Vollmer. I'd be glad to listen to it when/if you come up with a reason or reasons. Saying that Light started at the beginning of the year is not good enough.

I said that this team has flaws, never have I said that they cannot advance in the playoffs. I said that if the flaws are fixed this team has a chance to advance in the playoffs. Your posts havent even been about this years team for the most part, you have been caught up in not having Seymour and paying too much to park at Gillette.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

Deus- The only positive thing you've said about Vollmer has been, "Well put" when another poster said that he has done a good job filling in for Light. You are not an open minded poster, why do you think everything you post on this fight ends up being a 7 page thread with you going back and forth with one person?

You tell me, given that you've been stalking me about Vollmer in multiple threads. Other than those back and forths, I've barely mentioned the guy.

Now, how many negative things have I posted about Vollmer?

With that whole Colts game and Vollmer, what do you classify as help? A double team? A WR chipping Freeney before running a route? A screen call?

A chip is help, whether you care to admit it or not.

You have not given any reason as to why Light is better than Vollmer. I'd be glad to listen to it when/if you come up with a reason or reasons. Saying that Light started at the beginning of the year is not good enough.

Yes, I have. That you found them insufficient means nothing to me, given your position of being completely in the tank for Vollmer. I really don't care if you listen. What I'd like you to do is stop stalking me.

I said that this team has flaws, never have I said that they cannot advance in the playoffs. I said that if the flaws are fixed this team has a chance to advance in the playoffs. Your posts havent even been about this years team for the most part, you have been caught up in not having Seymour and paying too much to park at Gillette.

You were completely in the pocket of Belichick and the team. And I've posted plenty about this year's team. You've just chosen to see only what you wish to see. I'm used to people such as yourself only remembering what you disagreed with and not bothering to remember the rest. It's a common trait. I'm being called a "Belichick suck up" in another thread because I've defended the team's drafting.

Also, just for the record, defending Light and opining that he's better than Vollmer at the moment is not being negative towards the Patriots or Vollmer, and it is talking about this year's team.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

You tell me, given that you've been stalking me about Vollmer in multiple threads. Other than those back and forths, I've barely mentioned the guy.

Now, how many negative things have I posted about Vollmer?

A chip is help, whether you care to admit it or not.

Yes, I have. That you found them insufficient means nothing to me, given your position of being completely in the tank for Vollmer. I really don't care if you listen. What I'd like you to do is stop stalking me.

You were completely in the pocket of Belichick and the team. And I've posted plenty about this year's team. You've just chosen to see only what you wish to see. I'm used to people such as yourself only remembering what you disagreed with and not bothering to remember the rest. It's a common trait. I'm being called a "Belichick suck up" in another thread because I've defended the team's drafting.

Also, just for the record, defending Light and opining that he's better than Vollmer at the moment is not being negative towards the Patriots or Vollmer, and it is talking about this year's team.

Honestly your a joke. Stalking? This is a message board, I and other people can post when and wherever we want. You are a very opinionated man, which is why you constantly get into these individual fights with people. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that but you should start to think about what other people are saying instead of sticking to what you say. Does it give you satisfaction fighting with someone on here everyday, and it isnt just me. It is someone in every forum that you post in. That might be a hint that it is you and not me.

If you think that Stanback chipping Freeney for .5 second is help then your football knowledge quite embarassing.

Your acting like I am not a believer and have given up on the team. I still believe that this team can make a run in the playoffs if they can fix their problems that they have. Congrats that you have been called a "Belichick suck up" in another thread, thank you for defending the team that you love.

 

[mgteich]

Re: The 7 Man Offensive Line

If Belichick really traded Seymour because Belichick thought he was over the hill, then I am fine with the trade. I just don't believe he traded Seymour for that reason.

A better comparison for me was the trading of Vrabel.

I don't know of anyone questioning the Yates move. Hochstein was a bit different, which is why I asked you about him. However, your position here on cuts seems a bit inconsistent with your position on things like the Seymour trade. Maybe I'm misreading them in comparison?