The 2013 Prospect Thread

[Snake Eyes]

Jordan is off my board. The New England Patriots desperately need a 4-3 defensive end, who not only can set the edge, but also rush the passer.

I want Jordan but not as a dedicated DE, I want Tank Carradine for that. Jordan is in the 230-240lbs range, I don't think he'll have enough mass to take on a tackle but I do want him to cover a Jimmy Graham-type TE.

 

[ATippett56]

JPP was raw, and chandler jones was supposed to be raw too.

Jason Pierre Paul was listed at 6'-5", 270 pounds at the NFL Scouting Combine.

*Jason Pierre-Paul | South Florida, DE : 2010 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile

Dion Jordan lists at 6'-6", 243 pounds.

Dion Jordan | Oregon, DE : 2013 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile

 

[mackenzie45220]

i have to disagree with the run comment. and its not like the guy is an idiot. he is a hard worker too with a good motor. JPP was raw, and chandler jones was supposed to be raw too. look at those 2 guys and how they turned out. plus this guy has unheard of size athleticism and versatilty(he can play in the secondary sometimes)

Chandler Jones wasn't as raw as many said. JPP was raw, but that's because he only played one year of FBS football (JUCO). That's a good excuse. Jimmy Graham was raw, but he was a former basketball player who only played one college football season. That's a good excuse. Jordan has had access to years of good coaching. He's still raw. That's a problem.
If you want a raw project defensive end, make it Devin Taylor. At this point, the guy doesn't have a great feel for the game, but his length is truly unbelievable, he consistently plays hard, he has tremendous strength, and he is very athletic. Jordan and Taylor are roughly equally raw, but Taylor has more physical tools than Jordan.

 

[mackenzie45220]

I want Jordan but not as a dedicated DE, I want Tank Carradine for that. Jordan is in the 230-240lbs range, I don't think he'll have enough mass to take on a tackle but I do want him to cover a Jimmy Graham-type TE.

That's a good reason to want him

 

[ATippett56]

I want Jordan but not as a dedicated DE, I want Tank Carradine for that. Jordan is in the 230-240lbs range, I don't think he'll have enough mass to take on a tackle but I do want him to cover a Jimmy Graham-type TE.

I'd rather have Jesse Williams, DT - Alabama and Tank Carradine, DE - Florida State (or defensive end du jour) with the New England Patriots first two draft selections.

 

[mackenzie45220]

Your thoughts on James Gayle, DE from Virginia Tech?

James Gayle, DE, Virginia Tech, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com[/url] Gayle, DE, Virginia Tech, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

The New England Patriots defense desperately needs to upgrade the left defensive end position next season.

One thing I will say right now: ignore all 40 yard dashes until the combine for all players from VT or Syracuse. They run 40's on a rubberized track, not a football field, so the 40 times are always better.

Regardless, Gayle is a real mystery. He missed most of last season due to an injury. When he is on the field, he looks pretty good. But Frank Beamer seems oddly reluctant to give him playing time this season. He only had 9 tackles in the first 4 games of 2012, and he was only seeing the field for about 40% of snaps. We'll see what happens later in the season.

 

[ATippett56]

One thing I will say right now: ignore all 40 yard dashes until the combine for all players from VT or Syracuse. They run 40's on a rubberized track, not a football field, so the 40 times are always better.

Regardless, Gayle is a real mystery. He missed most of last season due to an injury. When he is on the field, he looks pretty good. But Frank Beamer seems oddly reluctant to give him playing time this season. He only had 9 tackles in the first 4 games of 2012, and he was only seeing the field for about 40% of snaps. We'll see what happens later in the season.

In your opinion, who is the best all around 4-3 defensive end prospect (must be able to set the edge in the running game) that would be available at the end of the second round?

 

[fightingirish595]

Chandler Jones wasn't as raw as many said. JPP was raw, but that's because he only played one year of FBS football (JUCO). That's a good excuse. Jimmy Graham was raw, but he was a former basketball player who only played one college football season. That's a good excuse. Jordan has had access to years of good coaching. He's still raw. That's a problem.
If you want a raw project defensive end, make it Devin Taylor. At this point, the guy doesn't have a great feel for the game, but his length is truly unbelievable, he consistently plays hard, he has tremendous strength, and he is very athletic. Jordan and Taylor are roughly equally raw, but Taylor has more physical tools than Jordan.

dion jordan isnt that raw. hes great at setting the edge and has elite first step quickness. he was recruited as a tight end and switched to defense in 2010. only 2 full years on defense. and he covers recievers, and plays d end and olb effectively. hes listed as 6-6 or 6-6. and 240, he can easily gain the bulk.

 

[fightingirish595]

In your opinion, who is the best all around 4-3 defensive end prospect (must be able to set the edge in the running game) that would be available at the end of the second round?

bjorn werner if you dont count barkevious mingo

 

[ATippett56]

bjorn werner if you dont count barkevious mingo

Werner and Mingo are top ten prospects. I'm looking for value at the end of the second round.

 

[fightingirish595]

I do not. No feel for the game, terrible on field awareness, never knows where to be, etc.

thats a bit harsh. hes a great passblocker, and hes a pretty good run blocker. awareness in PB is great as well but the RB not so great

 

[mayoclinic]

Werner and Mingo are top ten prospects. I'm looking for value at the end of the second round.

Tank Carradine if he lasts that long. Maybe Devin Taylor. Maybe Savid Bass as a dark horse, but haven't seen enough to judge, so I'm going solely on Mackenzie's one game appraisal.

 

[fightingirish595]

Werner and Mingo are top ten prospects. I'm looking for value at the end of the second round.

my bad, didnt read the last part of that post

not a big fan of big 10 guys on D but michael buchanan might be a good option. draft scout has jordan in round 2-3 and he would be our LDE in our 4 man fronts

 

[mackenzie45220]

dion jordan isnt that raw. hes great at setting the edge and has elite first step quickness. he was recruited as a tight end and switched to defense in 2010. only 2 full years on defense. and he covers recievers, and plays d end and olb effectively. hes listed as 6-6 or 6-6. and 240, he can easily gain the bulk.

Hand usage is terrible. When you have that much length, you need to rely on hand usage for success (Aldon Smith). The only thing he knows how to do is run to create pressure. With a 4.7 40, his speed is respectable, but it won't overwhelm NFL tackles. His hips are tight too in the open field, and he really struggles as a tackler.

Keep in mind he had 42 tackles in 14 games last year. That's 3 tackles per game. On top of that, take a look at the teams he got sacks against last year: 1 vs UCLA, 2 vs Oregon State, 1.5 against Washington, 1 vs Washington State, 1.5 vs Arizona. Can you name a single offensive lineman on any of those teams?

This year: 1 against Fresno State, 1 against Washington State, 1 against Tennessee Tech.

He inflates his stats against bad teams.

 

[ATippett56]

Tank Carradine if he lasts that long. Maybe Devin Taylor.

I'm looking for options if Carradine is gone before the New England Patriots organization selects at the bottom of the second round.

 

[mayoclinic]

I'm looking for options if Carradine is gone before the New England Patriots organization selects at the bottom of the second round.

And I gave you my other 2, Taylor and Bass. Possibly William Gholston, but there are a lot of issues with him.

 

[mackenzie45220]

In your opinion, who is the best all around 4-3 defensive end prospect (must be able to set the edge in the running game) that would be available at the end of the second round?

William Gholston doesn't get enough credit for what he does against the run. For him, it's not about TFL's. But he can disengage from blocks at will. The second the ball crosses the line of scrimmage, he effortlessly disengages from his block and begins to pursue. He's Julius Peppers minus 3 sacks every year.

 

[fightingirish595]

Hand usage is terrible. When you have that much length, you need to rely on hand usage for success (Aldon Smith). The only thing he knows how to do is run to create pressure. With a 4.7 40, his speed is respectable, but it won't overwhelm NFL tackles. His hips are tight too in the open field, and he really struggles as a tackler.

Keep in mind he had 42 tackles in 14 games last year. That's 3 tackles per game. On top of that, take a look at the teams he got sacks against last year: 1 vs UCLA, 2 vs Oregon State, 1.5 against Washington, 1 vs Washington State, 1.5 vs Arizona. Can you name a single offensive lineman on any of those teams?

This year: 1 against Fresno State, 1 against Washington State, 1 against Tennessee Tech.

He inflates his stats against bad teams.

"hand usage is terrible. i want to see some examples of this, or i want to know where you read that. it might not be great, but i doubt its terrible as you say. he needs better coaching to develop as a pass rusher. you never hear any pass rushers come out of the pac 12(outside of usc). he cant be too tight in his hipsif he runs with recievr and tight ends. idk many guys that can effectively play on all 3 levels of the field. if you want tight in the hips look at brandon spikes

 

[mackenzie45220]

Werner and Mingo are top ten prospects. I'm looking for value at the end of the second round.

Werner is extremely overrated among people with internet access. There is absolutely no way he will be a top 10 pick. All of his 6.5 sacks have come against Murray State, Savannah State, and Wake Forest. He's bad against the run. In 6 games he has 13 tackles on run plays. That's obviously not going to cut it. His strength is overrated, he can't disengage from blocks, and his instincts need a lot of work. He's a guy who is overrated by the media, but I'm sure most scouts have him as a late first rounder.

 

[ATippett56]

William Gholston doesn't get enough credit for what he does against the run. For him, it's not about TFL's. But he can disengage from blocks at will. The second the ball crosses the line of scrimmage, he effortlessly disengages from his block and begins to pursue. He's Julius Peppers minus 3 sacks every year.

Not a fan of Gholston:

WalterFootball.com: 2013 NFL Draft Stock - Week 5

2012 NFL Draft Stock Down

William Gholston, DE, Michigan State

I'm sorry to keep piling on the Spartans prospects, and I know there fans will flood my inbox, but Gholston (6-7, 278) is one of the most disappointing draft prospects this year. He has shown no improvement from his sophomore season and actually seems to have regressed.

He was a ghost on any play that the Buckeyes blocked him. The only plays he flashed were when he was left completely unblocked. Gholston's pass rush is weak. He has no repertoire of moves and is wasting a nice physical skill set. With his strength, there is no reason for him not to have developed a club move or a rip move. All Gholston does is bull rush and his pad level is horrible. He stands up too high and tackles can easily stop it.

In response to my post on Twitter @draftcampbell that Gholston has no pass-rushing moves and looks like Tarzan but plays like Jane, forum member Blue tweeted to me "Looks like Tarzan, plays like Vernon." There are a lot of similarities between the cousins, but at least Vernon had big sack production in college.

William, on the other hand, has only one sack this season and it came against Central Michigan. He's totaled 18 tackles and four tackles for a loss, but half of his TFLs came against Central Michigan. Gholston should return for his senior season. He looks like his only fit in the NFL right now would be as a 3-4 defensive end who can occupy blockers. Gholston doesn't make enough plays to be a 4-3 defensive end.