Talib’s biggest challenge yet – can he/we contain Josh Gordon?

[AzorianPats]

Gordon and Cameron are special talents. Cleveland just sucks ass at QB. Weeden is horrible.

 

[borg]

The Belichick defensive gameplan will be based on taking that away.

Like he took Tate and Andre Johnson out of the equation?

Everyone scores 30 on this depleted defense.....Just a question if Brady can put 30+ on the board from here on out

 

[goheels22002]

The Browns also signed Caleb Hanie today.

A week later, the Browns sign Caleb Hanie | ProFootballTalk

Caleb Hanie is good news for the Patriots. For his NFL career, Hanie has thrown 3 TDs and 10 INTs. I'd take that on Sunday at Foxboro.

Mods: Please change the title of this thread to "Gordon's biggest challenge yet - can he/they contain Aquib Talib?"

 

[Brady6]

Didn't you discount Amendola's performance against that same great defense?

One or two bombs caught in a game has defined Gordon's statistics over the last three games. The Ravens, a team not having a great year in pass defense, held him to 3 receptions and 44 yards. The Packers, a team with no defense, held him to 21 yards.

While I have no desire to watch Browns games other than the one this week, it looks from drive charts that all QBs on the Browns will just heave the ball downfield repeatedly to him. Good teams go for sustained drives. Bad teams go for that improbable outcome. It seems a little premature to string two good performances against suspect pass defenses into characterization as an unstoppable foe. Graham racked up 530 yards in 4 prior games, and somehow the Pats shut him down. I don't know if I'd give Gordon Andre Johnson status either. Or even Steve Smith, who plays on a run-first offense in a passing offense that spreads the ball around.

Credit him with having a good season, but this thread appears to be a little dramatic in terms of characterizing him as the biggest threat the Pats D has seen all year.

Gordon beat coverage and made a catch with a defender on him. Amendola ran untouched and uncovered through the secondary. Not that I discounted what Amendola did I was pointing out that the average per reception on his other 30/32 receptions at the time.

Part of what makes him Talib's biggest challenge is exactly what you said, they just throw it up for him. Defending against undisciplined a team is a lot more challenging then a disciplined team. Against the previous receivers Talib was able to cover them and that would prevent a lot of targets, this week it doesn't matter if Talib is glued to Gordon the Browns will throw it to him and that means Talib then has to out fight him for the ball. You say it's dramatic I say it's valid.

 

[JMC00]

Everyone scores 30 on this depleted defense.....Just a question if Brady can put 30+ on the board from here on out

Not if teams don't have drives that start at midfield or in Pats territory.

59 of the 134 points given up over the last 5 games have come from opponents starting at midfield or in Pats territory.

Eliminate those and Pats are allowing 15 points a game.

 

[Brady6]

Caleb Hanie is good news for the Patriots. For his NFL career, Hanie has thrown 3 TDs and 10 INTs. I'd take that on Sunday at Foxboro.

Mods: Please change the title of this thread to "Gordon's biggest challenge yet - can he/they contain Aquib Talib?"

If I was a betting man I'd wager a large sum that Talib will have at least one pick on Sunday.

 

[Brady6]

Everyone scores 30 on this depleted defense.....Just a question if Brady can put 30+ on the board from here on out

They've actually held their opponent to 20 or less points in a game (4 times) more times then they've allowed 30 or more points (3 times) in a game this season.

 

[Brady6]

Weeden is horrible.

You tell me another 30 year old in his 2nd NFL season that is better than Weeden?!

 

[Ring 6]

Like he took Tate and Andre Johnson out of the equation?

Everyone scores 30 on this depleted defense.....Just a question if Brady can put 30+ on the board from here on out

Everyone does not include Denver, Miami, Cincinnati, NO, Carolina...

In fact, everyone now appears to be defined as Pitsburgh and Houston. :bricks:

 

[JMC00]

In fact, everyone now appears to be defined as Pitsburgh and Houston. :bricks:

Which 31 of the 62 points scored by those two teams came from them starting at midfield or in NE territory.

I can't knock this defense in the state it is if the offense and special teams are putting them in a hole where the opposing team only has to drive 40-45 yards.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I dunno if I'd call this his biggest challenge. He already went up against Graham, Julio, and AJ Green this year. I'd put Gordon right about on those guys' level, but I definitely don't see him as a step above any of them.

The Pats' biggest challenge has been stopping the run, by far, and as luck would have it Cleveland can't run the ball. Then again, neither could the Texans against Jacksonville the week before they played us.

If the Pats can stop the run and can cover Cameron reasonably well, I'm plenty confident that McCourty and Talib can contain Gordon enough to win the game.

 

[Ozymandias]

Come on mate. Let's be serious here for a minute. Gordon is developing into a nice receiver but to say he looks a more polished route runner and releases off the line better than a top 5 receiver in the league? As good a season as Gordon is having people forget what Julio Jones brings to the table given his IR designation.

Secondly, you can make arguments for and against your line up comment. It's a moot point. Gordon sees as many targets as he does because the Browns have Cameron and that's it. That's not taking away from Gordon who is showing signs that he is developing into a beast more a stab at the comment directed toward Jones being in a better line up.

You're overrating Jones' skill as a route runner and underrating Gordon's. Last year Gordon was merely a vertical threat, but this season he's gotten a lot better at running routes and to state that he's not a top 5 receiver talent wise is a falsehood.

Anyone who's been watching him over his first two seasons can clearly see he has huge potential. So far he's lived up to that. Try studying his gametape before you come around with such notions.

Secondly, my arguments were perfectly fine. You claim he's a beast only because he sees a lot of targets. No. That's not why he's a beast. Is Calvin Johnson only a beast because he sees a lot of targets too? That's what you're trying to imply. Gordon's a beast BECAUSE teams know he's the basically all the Browns have, and yet they still cannot stop him. The focus on Cameron has neutralized him. The same cannot be said for Gordon. He's been doubled and tripled-team at times, and yet he still gets his.

If it weren't for his 2-game suspension, he'd be on pace to break Calvin Johnson's single season receiving record he set last season. You don't get to level by being a one-trick pony. How you fail to comprehend that is beyond me.

 

[Ozymandias]

I dunno if I'd call this his biggest challenge. He already went up against Graham, Julio, and AJ Green this year. I'd put Gordon right about on those guys' level, but I definitely don't see him as a step above any of them.

Gordon is going to be a bigger challenge for Talib simply because unlike when he played those other guys, he's not completely healthy, at least not what he was back then.

If this were Talib earlier in the season, he could definitely go toe-to-toe with him. As it stands, health-wise, I doubt he could contain him one-on-one.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Which 31 of the 62 points scored by those two teams came from them starting at midfield or in NE territory.

I can't knock this defense in the state it is if the offense and special teams are putting them in a hole where the opposing team only has to drive 40-45 yards.

Yep, and this is something I really don't understand because they are loaded with good ST players. I would expect much better from them, they have the kickers and the ST talent to be pinning teams back consistently.

 

[dales804]

Here are BB's comments on Gordon. Like many players, he has a glowing review:

The Blitz with Jeff Howe & Karen Guregian | Boston Herald

 

[NYCPatsFan]

Here are BB's comments on Gordon. Like many players, he has a glowing review:

The Blitz with Jeff Howe & Karen Guregian | Boston Herald

As you mentioned, how often has BB dismissed or talked about an opponent - be it a player or the team - in any kind of negative or mediocre light?

The rare time I remember is when he dismissed that Freddie or some guy in the Eagles just before our SB with them.

Gosh, that seems so long ago. Wish we host one this season and the next.

 

[ausbacker]

You're overrating Jones' skill as a route runner and underrating Gordon's. Last year Gordon was merely a vertical threat, but this season he's gotten a lot better at running routes and to state that he's not a top 5 receiver talent wise is a falsehood.

Anyone who's been watching him over his first two seasons can clearly see he has huge potential. So far he's lived up to that. Try studying his gametape before you come around with such notions.

Secondly, my arguments were perfectly fine. You claim he's a beast only because he sees a lot of targets. No. That's not why he's a beast. Is Calvin Johnson only a beast because he sees a lot of targets too? That's what you're trying to imply. Gordon's a beast BECAUSE teams know he's the basically all the Browns have, and yet they still cannot stop him. The focus on Cameron has neutralized him. The same cannot be said for Gordon. He's been doubled and tripled-team at times, and yet he still gets his.

If it weren't for his 2-game suspension, he'd be on pace to break Calvin Johnson's single season receiving record he set last season. You don't get to level by being a one-trick pony. How you fail to comprehend that is beyond me.

Repeating the same piece twice doesn't emphasise your point, it repeats your point. That Derek Anderson to Braylon Edwards connection sure looked special in 2007.

 

[SoCal Pmen]

He'll be a challenge for Talib but we still don't know who's going to be chucking the ball for Cleveland.

 

[Ozymandias]

Repeating the same piece twice doesn't emphasise your point, it repeats your point. That Derek Anderson to Braylon Edwards connection sure looked special in 2007.

It bears repeating because you clearly didn't comprehend it the first time. Seeing as though you're reverting back to your logical fallacy that you always do when you have nothing relevant to add to the discussion at hand, I'll save you trouble and break it down for you so you have a clear indication of what it is that you're failingly arguing against:

• Poster A: Julio Jones is WAY better than Josh Gordon
• Poster B (me): Not really. Gordon and Jones are in the same ball park. Jones is the better athlete, Gordon is the better all around receiver.
• Poster C (you): Jones is top 5, Gordon isn't close to as good. He only piles up stats because of targets
• Poster B (me): By this logic Calvin Johnson isn't top 5 because he piles stats due to a lot of targets. Gordon averages more per game this season than anyone else, including Megatron, despite being double and triple covered whilst having a QB-carousel throwing him the ball. Only elite receivers can do that. Instead of blabbering your opinion, actually watch his game film.
• Poster C (you): I have no retort to that, so I'll use a strawman argument about Braylon Edwards to make it seem like I have something pertinent to say.

That pretty much breaks it down.

I don't mind repeating facts, because they are true. Unlike you, I don't think my opinion is above that, but as to why I think he's a better all around receiver (key word here: not player). For one, he's better with the ball in his hands because he's harder to tackle. He runs more routes than Jones. There's that misconception that he just runs go-routes, which isn't accurate. Gordon has great tools: size (6'4", 225 pounds), speed (4.4 40-yard dash), and serious leaping ability. He has improved his route running drastically since coming into the NFL, and is now a threat all over the field in every situation.

He also has put up monster stats DESPITE whomever is at QB. That's rare, and only the best of the best can do that. The last time we've seen a receiver be able to do this was Calvin Johnson when Stafford was injured. Even the great Larry Fitzgerald couldn't accomplish that last season. Please do tell how many receivers in the NFL could have 3 different starting QBs (all of whom are average to below average) in 10 games and still manage to lead the league in yards per game and be top 5 yards per catch and yards?

Whether it's Brandon Weeden, Brian Hoyer, Jason Campbell, you name it. The guy has gotten it done, regardless. He averages a ridiculous 124.9 yards per game. Even if you remove his 237 & 281-yard performances the last two weeks, he would average 93.8 yards per game, which would still be second in the league.

Gordon is playing alongside one of the worst offenses, and worst quarterbacks (or trio of quarterbacks), in the league, yet still ranks in the top five in yards per catch despite missing the first two games of season due to suspension. Gordon has the highest yards per catch average of any qualified receiver in the NFL, yet his team is at the bottom of the NFL in yards per completion.

By any metric, you want to throw out there in terms of how to judge a receiver - Gordon gets it done. To say he's not elite or top 5-10 already is disingenuous at best, and delusional at worst.

 

[ausbacker]

It bears repeating because you clearly didn't comprehend it the first time. Seeing as though you're reverting back to your logical fallacy that you always do when you have nothing relevant to add to the discussion at hand, I'll save you trouble and break it down for you so you have a clear indication of what it is that you're failingly arguing against:

I wish you would quit with your passive aggressive comprehend my argument style of posting you have become known for. Each to their own.

• Poster A: Julio Jones is WAY better than Josh Gordon
• Poster B (me): Not really. Gordon and Jones are in the same ball park. Jones is the better athlete, Gordon is the better all around receiver.
• Poster C (you): Jones is top 5, Gordon isn't close to as good. He only piles up stats because of targets
• Poster B (me): By this logic Calvin Johnson isn't top 5 because he piles stats due to a lot of targets. Gordon averages more per game this season than anyone else, including Megatron, despite being double and triple covered whilst having a QB-carousel throwing him the ball. Only elite receivers can do that. Instead of blabbering your opinion, actually watch his game film.
• Poster C (you): I have no retort to that, so I'll use a strawman argument about Braylon Edwards to make it seem like I have something pertinent to say.

That pretty much breaks it down.

I really wish you would quit it with the double and triple coverages. That simply is not the case. Gordon is not double and triple covered nearly as much as you present. I've watched plenty of Browns games (being a fan of the NFL). He isn't assigned an extra defender more than any other impressive receiver.

I'll address the rest further in an effort to minimize double ups.

I don't mind repeating facts, because they are true. Unlike you, I don't think my opinion is above that, but as to why I think he's a better all around receiver (key word here: not player). For one, he's better with the ball in his hands because he's harder to tackle. He runs more routes than Jones. There's that misconception that he just runs go-routes, which isn't accurate. Gordon has great tools: size (6'4", 225 pounds), speed (4.4 40-yard dash), and serious leaping ability. He has improved his route running drastically since coming into the NFL, and is now a threat all over the field in every situation.

The funny thing here Ozymandias is you're not repeating fact, you're repeating opinion. Further to that point, most of your opinions read like a guy who has gone to NFLDraftScout and lifted their scouting reports then passed those opinions off as his own.

Gordon is a great young receiver. I am not debating that. Once you get passed this point, you'll start seeing the point with a little more clarity.

He also has put up monster stats DESPITE whomever is at QB. That's rare, and only the best of the best can do that. The last time we've seen a receiver be able to do this was Calvin Johnson when Stafford was injured. Even the great Larry Fitzgerald couldn't accomplish that last season. Please do tell how many receivers in the NFL could have 3 different starting QBs (all of whom are average to below average) in 10 games and still manage to lead the league in yards per game and be top 5 yards per catch and yards?

Gordon is having a fine year. I'm not arguing against that. The question I proposed to you is do you think Gordon would be putting up these numbers in units where the targets/passes are spread more evenly given the greater talent, such as Atlanta?

Whether it's Brandon Weeden, Brian Hoyer, Jason Campbell, you name it. The guy has gotten it done, regardless. He averages a ridiculous 124.9 yards per game. Even if you remove his 237 & 281-yard performances the last two weeks, he would average 93.8 yards per game, which would still be second in the league.

I have already said on multiple occasions that Gordon is having a fantastic season. Julio Jones was having another fantastic season before he broke down and was slapped with the IR designation.

Gordon is playing alongside one of the worst offenses, and worst quarterbacks (or trio of quarterbacks), in the league, yet still ranks in the top five in yards per catch despite missing the first two games of season due to suspension. Gordon has the highest yards per catch average of any qualified receiver in the NFL, yet his team is at the bottom of the NFL in yards per completion.

Yes he is. I don't blame Gordon for the poor Quarterbacks he's forced to play with.

By any metric, you want to throw out there in terms of how to judge a receiver - Gordon gets it done. To say he's not elite or top 5-10 already is disingenuous at best, and delusional at worst.

That's because Gordon isn't a top 5 receiver. This season, he's having a top 5 receiver season but I like to see more than one season of elite performance before I throw a young, developing beast into the fray with the NFL elite.

The NFL is littered with guys who put together magnificent seasons, hell, recent memory includes Brandon Lloyd, Cecil Shorts and so forth. Hell, Percy Harvin has the elite moniker despite doing half of what Gordon is doing this season because he's a "dynamic playmaker". To me, labels are thrown around far to flippantly these days. I'd rather see prolonged performance than take a year in isolation.