Tagliabue vacates all Saints player's discipline

[ausbacker]

Florio's take on Tagliabue's ruling.


Tagliabue shows Goodell the way to implement a culture change | ProFootballTalk

Tagliabue cites “an important example” from the tenure of former Commissioner Pete Rozelle, who used “a short-term exemption from discipline as a means of swiftly facilitating an intensified effort to change a negative culture to enhance the health and safety of NFL players.” Tagliabue then explains (or, from Goodell’s perspective, lectures) the details.

"It was the 1980s. And the NFL was (finally) waking up to the problem of steroids. “Rozelle developed and implemented a set of policies, prohibitions and testing regimens to identify steroid abusers and eliminate the safety and health risks,” Tagliabue writes, knowing full well that Goodell knows this because he was working in the league office at the time. “[Rozelle] included a discipline-free transition year in the new policy. Rozelle warned one-year in advance that a discipline policy suspending players for steroid use would be implemented the following season. Four months prior to the enforcement of the policy, all players were advised by letter of the specific disciplinary actions for steroid use. For that year, Rozelle sharpened the rules and set escalating penalties while withholding player discipline. Rozelle recognized the realities of team operations and sought to ensure uniform compliance and enforcement in several dozen team workplaces. He understood that sometimes it is necessary to clarify the rules — make sure everyone understands; postpone discipline for a while, not forever, but maybe for a season; and then enforce the rules with strict discipline.”

In other words, Tagliabue is telling Goodell, as gently as possible, that he needs to pump the brakes the next time he wants to break balls over whatever longstanding problem he suddenly decides needs to be eradicated. The fact that Tagliabue sent the message in a 22-page document that has been disclosed for the media to study makes it even more of a slap by the master to his former servant."

Goodell is dealing with the failures of Tagliabue's reign. Whilst Goodell is heavy handed, let's not pretend a lot of the issues he's dealing with aren't thanks to Tagliabue's soft stance on almost everything.

All this "ruling" does is enforce Tagliabue's standing with the players. Frankly, I'm pissed off the Saints players get off with what I consider SFA and the Patriots were hammered for a minor rule infraction.

 

[Deus Irae]

Goodell is dealing with the failures of Tagliabue's reign. Whilst Goodell is heavy handed, let's not pretend a lot of the issues he's dealing with aren't thanks to Tagliabue's soft stance on almost everything.

All this "ruling" does is enforce Tagliabue's standing with the players. Frankly, I'm pissed off the Saints players get off with what I consider SFA and the Patriots were hammered for a minor rule infraction.

Blame Kraft for not fighting, then.

 

[ausbacker]

Blame Kraft for not fighting, then.

Kraft knows when to pick and choose his battles. I've been of the opinion from the beginning that Spygate was overblown and the Patriots were punished harshly (even though they should have been punished).

Bountygate is a different ball park.

 

[pherein]

Here you go again. The coaches have no appeal. And Goodell hasn't lost any court cases yet. Instead he opted to avoid one. Which will only hurt the league's ability to enforce discipline long term. Tagliabue found the players did what they were accused of doing. He simply determined that their punishment wasn't warranted in part because they were unduly influenced by their employer...both to participate and to lie about participating. Vilma's attorney never wins his cases but he keeps filing them because he's an attention whore like his client.

You wasted your own season. Your management is to blame for what transpired. And your QB is to blame for allowing a distraction to persist and now he's just using it as an excuse.

What complete useless conjecture on your part. MoLewisrocks you have been wrong about almost everything, and here we are. You know zero about Sean Paytons coaching , but fully willing to pretend you date each other on and intimate level.

If I search your post on this topic, I am left with a one-sided plea for heads to roll and very pro Goodell. Your irrational and think you have lost to much credibility on this subject. You have been wrong to many times.
Rem this will never get to court? they have to much? 1000's of pages that don't exist , but you wouldn't listen.
I never think you will. So its not important to me that you do, you never will,lol. Your impossible, and useless to talk on this topic, sorry.

You might have been naive, but Im not close to believing what you have to say, like before. I believe in performance and your numbers are dismal. You spearheaded Goodell, and the belief in the NFL, and that has eroded every day.

Sean Payton never admitted to knowing about this and you know that. What you believe.. Im pretty sure will not happen, because you have been wrong every time.. so why should I or anyone listen to you on this matter?

because of your gut feeling, thats been wrong ? you have your own personal agenda. Your not being rational on this ,you just want to fight, or have some issue I don't understand, and thats juvenile

Discussions get resolved with rational people. Thats just a fact
No, I won't answer your response either, what the heck good will that do none

I do respect you MoLewisrocks as I do many here, but this is getting very old. You have no damn idea what happened, if anything did, or who is involved, your a media whore reading the tabloids or blogs to prove your case, and wrong every time on this point.

Goodel is and idiot, and anyone that thinks different has their head up there ass, pretty simple. History proves that.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Goodell is dealing with the failures of Tagliabue's reign. Whilst Goodell is heavy handed, let's not pretend a lot of the issues he's dealing with aren't thanks to Tagliabue's soft stance on almost everything.

All this "ruling" does is enforce Tagliabue's standing with the players. Frankly, I'm pissed off the Saints players get off with what I consider SFA and the Patriots were hammered for a minor rule infraction.

I would hardly consider Tagliabue's reign as one wrought with failures but it's your boy Roger you should be pissed at for the punishment handed out for the "minor rules infraction." The man lacks good judgement and is more concerned about making a name for himself above all else.

 

[ausbacker]

I would hardly consider Tagliabue's reign as one wrought with failures but it's your boy Roger you should be pissed at for the punishment handed out for the "minor rules infraction." The man lacks good judgement and is more concerned about making a name for himself above all else.

I said it from the outset - Goodell crapped the bed with his handling of Spygate. People are misremembering Tagliabue and painting him in a shade of gold because of Goodell's heavy handed approach to the NFL.

 

[pherein]

I said it from the outset - Goodell crapped the bed with his handling of Spygate. People are misremembering Tagliabue and painting him in a shade of gold because of Goodell's heavy handed approach to the NFL.

He crapped the bed with more than just your bias of your teams dealings with him aus, and your right, it never had to go that far. He has hurt many other teams. People need to wake up and see he is hurting the game.


Roger Goodell Phone Number Tweeted By Wisconsin Senator Jon Erpenbach After Packers Loss

 

[ausbacker]

He crapped the bed with more than just your bias of your teams dealings with him aus, and your right, it never had to go that far. He has hurt many other teams. People need to wake up and see he is hurting the game.


Roger Goodell Phone Number Tweeted By Wisconsin Senator Jon Erpenbach After Packers Loss

One thing is accepted pherein, all commissioners are going to make good decisions and bad decisions. Reading Tagliabue's submission, the one word that I continue to come back to is pompous. Goodell, he's a heavy handed sheriff no doubt, but a lot of these issues he's dealing with are thanks to Tagliabue.

Some day we'll get our universally loved commissioner. Some day.

 

[pherein]

Some day we'll get our universally loved commissioner. Some day.

I hope so Aus. Their have been way to many mistakes with this one for anyone to consider him competent by a rational person, and we are not even done yet. Bounty, cameras, cart offs, and etc.. have been in the NFL for years now. Yes Tally never did fix it , and Im sure he knew about it, your right.
But he never change the game, and thats important.

Goodell had to be removed, so Tally could do his thing. What does that tell you. And you and I know Goodell never would have reduced the charges. No matter what the evidence said. Thats not heavy handed. Its just wrong I think.

Vilma will continue, but I do hope Benson, and Sean also file suites against Goodell, lord nows no other team has had the guts to, and might make a difference, because this is really stupid.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

If I search your post on this topic, I am left with a one-sided plea for heads to roll and very pro Goodell. Your irrational

Pot. Kettle. Black. Nice glass house you have there. Hate to see you ruin it.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Goodell is dealing with the failures of Tagliabue's reign. Whilst Goodell is heavy handed, let's not pretend a lot of the issues he's dealing with aren't thanks to Tagliabue's soft stance on almost everything.

All this "ruling" does is enforce Tagliabue's standing with the players. Frankly, I'm pissed off the Saints players get off with what I consider SFA and the Patriots were hammered for a minor rule infraction.

So Tags effectively claimed that Goodell should have fired a warning shot. He did. We were it. Now perhaps Tags feels that warning shot wasn't clear enough, at least to players. So I guess Goodell should have gone public with unsubstantiated concerns raised back in 2009 and warned that any team found to be running a pay to injure performance program was going to get slammed and that included players. But in this internet age that would have led to even more media and fan angst league wide as claims the Saints were let off the hook flew. He did make it clear to the Saints that their incentive program had to stop. And it didn't. And when it was revisited they lied and obstructed attempts to further investigate the situation including coaching players to lie. Even Ocho knows you don't lie to dad, only makes it worse.

Every season teams and players are made aware of the illegality of pay for performance outside the cap. But like most things players are made aware of...the message fell on deaf ears. Tags contended that an incremental approach would have been better where the players are concerned. We've all seen how well that has worked over the last several seasons in changing the culture...not.

You know how BB effected culture change? He eliminated entitled or underperforming players that didn't fit his. Zero tolerance is just talk unless it's backed up by actual, you know, zero tolerance. Tagliabue was concerned that in this case select players were punished severely while others were not punished at all. His approach would have been to warn everyone, fine everyone and then waive the fines and assume the lesson was learned. It would have been too, just not the lesson he intended.

Tagliabue is likely a little jealous of Roger on the heels of the 2011 CBA and the bad press he has had to live with as his legacy as a result of rubber stamping the CBA of 2006 that eventually led to a lockout. This decision is a reminder to those in the media who have failed to support his HOF selection that going along to get along is supposed to be the selection criteria for Commissioners apparently.

Goodell is somewhat tone deaf, I'll certainly concede that. But so is BB.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Blame Kraft for not fighting, then.

I do. Of course, I love the guy for about a thousand other reasons, so it's kind a a drop in the bucket, but I've made it clear from day one that I wish he'd done more, publicly, to push back against Goodell and maintain that they were getting a felony sentence for what amounted to a misdemeanor.

And FWIW Tagliabue found ample evidence that Vilma offered a bounty. He just disagreed with the punishment imposed. He would have fined them all. Of course he would. He docked Denver mid level draft picks for deliberately subverting the cap twice on the road to two rings.

That's exactly the point with Spygate, as well. A rule was violated. But the punishment was so over-the-top severe that it led people to believe that the crime must have been orders of magnitude worse than it was. If the punishment had been anything even close to what the Broncos got for subverting the salary cap, it would already be a footnote that nobody remembered except a couple of especially insane/butthurt Jets fans.

 

[PatsSox363804]

I do. Of course, I love the guy for about a thousand other reasons, so it's kind a a drop in the bucket, but I've made it clear from day one that I wish he'd done more, publicly, to push back against Goodell and maintain that they were getting a felony sentence for what amounted to a misdemeanor.



That's exactly the point with Spygate, as well. A rule was violated. But the punishment was so over-the-top severe that it led people to believe that the crime must have been orders of magnitude worse than it was. If the punishment had been anything even close to what the Broncos got for subverting the salary cap, it would already be a footnote that nobody remembered except a couple of especially insane/butthurt Jets fans.

Exactly, but since Goodell is an over the top ass we are now the biggest cheaters to ever take the field to a significant portion of NFL fans which is friggin absurd. We also get to hear things like "they havent been able to win since Spygate" which completely ignores how well Belichick has rebuilt this team over the years.

 

[LivinLovin&Breathin_Brady]

I have no problem with how Goodell handled this Saints case. Regardless with what happen during the Spygate investigation. I thought Goodell handled the Pats case as good as anyone else would've. The media is what made Spygate bigger than what it really was. There's media and jealous fans still claiming that the punishment wasn't steep enough for what they were doing, they're still questioning what was on those burned videos and trying to taint their SB victories. Who knows what were on those tapes, maybe he burned them in some way to protect the Patriots, maybe he burned them to protect his own butt, we'll never know. There's still questions surrounding Spygate that we'll probably never get the answers to. The Pats aren't complaining, because they accepted their wrong-doings and moved on and they clearly don't need those taped signals to beat a team. The Saints on the other hand is still trying to play innocent.

Everything I've heard from the appeals, Goodell, Taggs and the judge who overturned the case before, says the Saints was running some illegal and dirty bounty program, that could've likely caused players their careers, just so Vilma could get a little extra money into his thug infested pockets. But it's ok that the players still play, because they need to help the Hurricane damaged Saints continue their path to another SB title. It's the feel good story of all-time right? Though it did happen some 6 years ago.

Just because Taggs overturned the players suspensions, it doesn't mean that their innocent of anything, he just disagrees with Goodell's punishment. Well I don't. You can't say the organization and the coaches are guilty but the players are not, it's impossible to run a bounty program in the NFL without having the weapons or in this case the players to do the damage.

Anyone else catch the Anthony Hargrove interview on CBS last sunday before the games? He is ignorant and basically admitted that the Saints was running a bounty program while trying to deny it and didn't even realize it.

Hopefully, Sean Payton heads back to Dallas and the Saints continue to suck for the next ten years with their overpaid self-loving QB and dirty defense.

 

[Joker]

I do. Of course, I love the guy for about a thousand other reasons, so it's kind a a drop in the bucket, but I've made it clear from day one that I wish he'd done more, publicly, to push back against Goodell and maintain that they were getting a felony sentence for what amounted to a misdemeanor.



That's exactly the point with Spygate, as well. A rule was violated. But the punishment was so over-the-top severe that it led people to believe that the crime must have been orders of magnitude worse than it was. If the punishment had been anything even close to what the Broncos got for subverting the salary cap, it would already be a footnote that nobody remembered except a couple of especially insane/butthurt Jets fans.

wish I could like this post a few hundred times instead of just once....

 

[Koma]

I do. Of course, I love the guy for about a thousand other reasons, so it's kind a a drop in the bucket, but I've made it clear from day one that I wish he'd done more, publicly, to push back against Goodell and maintain that they were getting a felony sentence for what amounted to a misdemeanor.



That's exactly the point with Spygate, as well. A rule was violated. But the punishment was so over-the-top severe that it led people to believe that the crime must have been orders of magnitude worse than it was. If the punishment had been anything even close to what the Broncos got for subverting the salary cap, it would already be a footnote that nobody remembered except a couple of especially insane/butthurt Jets fans.

...Or close to what the Broncos got for filming other team's practices.

 

[TyronePoole]

Pats specifically named in Tagliabue's decision:

Paul Tagliabue's full ruling on vacating penalties against players in Saints bounty case | NOLA.com

I find the NFL’s contentions lacking in merit. In dealing with pay-for-performance pools that appear comparable to Fujita’s pool, the League has emphasized club responsibility for ensuring player compliance with League policies, and has disciplined clubs - - but not players - -
for non-compliance. For example, in separate instances involving the Green Bay Packers and New England Patriots in 2007 and 2008, the League fined the clubs $25,000 or less, without disciplining any player. Notably, the 2007 discipline letter to the Patriots stated that:

You have confirmed that a number of Patriots’ players
were in violation of this rule [prohibiting bonuses paid by players
to their teammates as a reward for game performance]. Fine
money assessed and collected by the players was distributed as
rewards to players for achieving an onfield incentive during a
game.

. . . While the Patriots’ players emphatically denied that
rewards were offered for targeting specific players or for taking
them out of the game, this issue underscores the importance of
prohibiting these types of bonuses; if an injury does occur, the
mere existence of a specific bonus for onfield performance against
a particular team invites unnecessary speculation that a player or
players may have been a target for overzealous defenders.
As you have acknowledged, it is the club’s responsibility to
inform its players of the parameters of the rule and monitor their
compliance.

Accordingly, the NFL’s decision to suspend a player here for participating in a program for which the League typically fines a club certainly raises significant issues regarding inconsistent treatment between players and teams.

Other interesting snippets wrt Goodell's incessant lying:

Adding to the complexity, there is little evidence of the tone of any talk about a bounty before the Vikings game. Was any bounty pledged serious? Was it inspirational only? Was it typical “trash talk” that occurs regularly before and during games?

The parties presented no clear answers. No witness could confirm whether Vilma had any money in his hands as he spoke; no evidence was presented that $10,000 was available to him for purposes of paying a bounty or otherwise.

There was no evidence that Vilma or anyone else paid any money to any player for any bounty-related hit on an opposing player in the Vikings game.

I cannot, however, uphold a multi-game suspension where there is no evidence that a player’s speech prior to a game was actually a factor causing misconduct on the playing field and that such misconduct was severe enough in itself to warrant a player suspension or a very substantial fine.

On the present record, selective prosecution of allegations of misconduct and enforcement of discipline relative to Smith cannot be sustained. Whatever the reason for such selective enforcement, it does not satisfy basic requirements for consistent treatment of player employees similarly situated.

Accordingly, the NFL’s decision to suspend a player here for participating in a program for which the League typically fines a club certainly raises significant issues regarding inconsistent treatment between players and teams.

Given that it is undisputed that Fujita did not participate in the Program including cartoffs and knockouts, and that his participation in a “non-injury” pay-for-performance pool is typically subject only to club discipline, I find that his actions here were not conduct detrimental and vacate his suspension.

Commissioner Goodell found that Hargrove falsely answered questions put to him by an NFL investigator during the initial investigation of Saints’ misconduct in March 2010.

That investigation was obstructed in multiple ways by the Saints’ head coach, senior coaches and other team officials, including their instructing Hargrove to answer questions falsely, though it remains unclear what exactly Hargrove was asked by investigators regarding the Program.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

The previous post only emphasizes further Goodell's inconsistent treatment of the Patriots camera placement violation, a WAY over reaction by the Comissioner.

 

[TyronePoole]

The previous post only emphasizes further Goodell's inconsistent treatment of the Patriots camera placement violation, a WAY over reaction by the Comissioner.

Don't you get it though? the Pats got screwed over so now the Saints should too, it's only fair!

 

[Deus Irae]

I do. Of course, I love the guy for about a thousand other reasons, so it's kind a a drop in the bucket, but I've made it clear from day one that I wish he'd done more, publicly, to push back against Goodell and maintain that they were getting a felony sentence for what amounted to a misdemeanor.



That's exactly the point with Spygate, as well. A rule was violated. But the punishment was so over-the-top severe that it led people to believe that the crime must have been orders of magnitude worse than it was. If the punishment had been anything even close to what the Broncos got for subverting the salary cap, it would already be a footnote that nobody remembered except a couple of especially insane/butthurt Jets fans.

Preach on, Brother BradyFTW!, preach on!