Tagliabue vacates all Saints player's discipline

[Hebeill]

Tags is like the cop who plays favorites and fixes tickets. Goodell is like the cop who goes by the book.

His own book which he seems o make up as he goes along. Hes an idiot, hes steadily ruining the game. Up next lets get rid of kick offs.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

Goodell comes off as pretty good in the report. The report savages the Saints and the players, except for Fujita, whom it exonerates.

Much as we hate Goodell for Spygate, I really actually don't have a quarrel with him here after reading the report. Freaking Vilma offered a bounty on quarterback. He can say whatever he wants, but the report cuts him to pieces. Tagliabue's view is that this doesn't warrant the suspension he received, because the coaches and team had created the environment and there's not enough precedent for suspensions, because the hits themselves are not suspendable.

I disagree. We all watched what happened when a guy deliberately goes for your QB's knee -- it puts a guy like Brady out for a year. I understand the league didn't have the stomach for litigation. I wish they had. A player who offers $10k to his teammates to put a QB on a stretcher should be suspended in my view. Call me crazy, but that's how I see it. Yes, the punishments were unprecedented, but you have to start somewhere.

I guess Tagliabue realized these guys have already missed lots of games, so it's time to close the book. I can live with that, I suppose. But hearing Vilma go on tv and claim he's been "exonerated" is really going to **** me off. If there were a genuine dispute whether he really did it, I would feel differently, but Tagliabue cuts him to the core. He's a scumbag as far as I'm concerned and deserves everything he got.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I don't know where you're getting your info on the players, so I can't contest that. I can tell you that, to a man, every NFL player that I've ever spoken to about Goodell thinks he's a joke. Now, I grant that it's a small sample size (fewer than 40 players), but their disdain for him has been universal.

Aside from a vocal minority, few players had much to say and quite a few were incensed that their peers would do something like this. Eli was pretty outspoken. Didn't hear any other leaders coming out one way or the other because while they may have been conflicted on principle (commissioner authority) they were also conflicted in practice. And certainly didn't see widespread unrest among the 1200 or so players in the league over Bountygate punishment.

I do think you and I often speak or listen to a totally different segment of society so it's likely the same where interpretation of football's best interests are concerned.

 

[Sicilian]

Tags is like the cop who plays favorites and fixes tickets. Goodell is like the cop who goes by the book.

He's more like a jury who is allowed to pass sentence. Sure, he may have an understanding of what's against the law, but he seems to deal out punishment based on emotion and not anything consistent or official.

That's really my only problem with Goodell himself. His punishments feel too arbitrary, and I think that might be what got him in trouble in this case. Everything else he does is either brought about by the NFL's need to prepare for coming health lawsuits, or is being dictated to him by the owners.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Goodell comes off as pretty good in the report. The report savages the Saints and the players, except for Fujita, whom it exonerates.

Much as we hate Goodell for Spygate, I really actually don't have a quarrel with him here after reading the report. Freaking Vilma offered a bounty on quarterback. He can say whatever he wants, but the report cuts him to pieces. Tagliabue's view is that this doesn't warrant the suspension he received, because the coaches and team had created the environment and there's not enough precedent for suspensions, because the hits themselves are not suspendable.

I disagree. We all watched what happened when a guy deliberately goes for your QB's knee -- it puts a guy like Brady out for a year. I understand the league didn't have the stomach for litigation. I wish they had. A player who offers $10k to his teammates to put a QB on a stretcher should be suspended in my view. Call me crazy, but that's how I see it. Yes, the punishments were unprecedented, but you have to start somewhere.

I guess Tagliabue realized these guys have already missed lots of games, so it's time to close the book. I can live with that, I suppose. But hearing Vilma go on tv and claim he's been "exonerated" is really going to **** me off. If there were a genuine dispute whether he really did it, I would feel differently, but Tagliabue cuts him to the core. He's a scumbag as far as I'm concerned and deserves everything he got.

The only reason I'd disagree on Fujita was because he got dinged because he was a freakin' NFLPA rep and on that basis alone he knew better and should have been the voice of reason. But warrior that he was he didn't have the stones to stand up against purportrating a clear violation of the CBA and NFL By-Laws.

 

[Deus Irae]

Aside from a vocal minority, few players had much to say and quite a few were incensed that their peers would do something like this. Eli was pretty outspoken. Didn't hear any other leaders coming out one way or the other because while they may have been conflicted on principle (commissioner authority) they were also conflicted in practice. And certainly didn't see widespread unrest among the 1200 or so players in the league over Bountygate punishment.

I do think you and I often speak or listen to a totally different segment of society so it's likely the same where interpretation of football's best interests are concerned.

Society has nothing to do with this. This is about how the NFL players feel regarding Goodell.

As far as society goes, I associate with the full range of society below "the elites", and I have for pretty much all of my life, so I'm not sure where you were going with that.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

Looks like Vilma's lawyer still intends to pursue the defamation lawsuit.

 

[BradyBranch39]

Only it's not. Pay for play among players is a longstanding violation of the CBA that is hard to police. A bounty program run through the coaches is another whole kettle of fish. And lying about it just added to the stench. There are thousands of former players now suing the league over it's lack of concern for safety.

And FWIW Tagliabue found ample evidence that Vilma offered a bounty. He just disagreed with the punishment imposed. He would have fined them all. Of course he would. He docked Denver mid level draft picks for deliberately subverting the cap twice on the road to two rings.

Yeah, I was talking about 'spygate'.

 

[Delicate Genius]

Here’s the full quote from Tagliabue’s ruling, with emphasis added:

“The record includes PowerPoint slide presentations made by the Saints’ coaching staff to Saints’ players following the Saints’ victories in 2009 season playoff games against the Arizona Cardinals (with quarterback Kurt Warner) and the Minnesota Vikings (with quarterback Brett Favre). Several of these presentations are very graphic and suggest that the aim of the Saints’ defense was to injure these quarterbacks. For example, one slide set following the game against the Cardinals includes a photo of Kurt Warner lying on the ground with a caption: ‘SO WE WILL JUST DESTROY EACH QUARTERBACK LEAVING EACH TEAM WITHOUT A FIELD GENERAL! ONE DOWN TWO QB’S TO GO!’ . . . . Another slide set from after the NFC Championship game again includes photos of Kurt Warner lying on the field with a caption of ‘BOO ******* HOO MISSION ACCOMPLISHED VS. WARNER AND FAVRE’; and the next slide includes photos of Brett Favre being helped off the field and of his bruised and bandaged ankle and leg, with a caption of ‘ONE MORE QB TO GO!!!!‘”

Tagliabue’s ruling suggests Saints were targeting Peyton Manning, too | ProFootballTalk

Whoa.

 

[Bhelmet]

This whole Tags circus was a huge CYA for Goodell. I hope Vilma wins and wins big - then he goes after Goodell civilly.

 

[ausbacker]

So Tagliabue agrees with Goodell that there was a Bounty scheme yet vacates the suspensions? Tagliabue's just ****ed the NFL's ability to punish transgressors for the next decade. Idiot.

 

[TyronePoole]

interesting term used by the league on this one:

Appended to NFL spokesman Greg Aiello’s stream of tweetiousness summarizing the ruling from former Commissioner Paul Tagliabue is the league’s statement in response to the ruling.

“We respect Mr. Tagliabue’s decision, which underscores the due process afforded players in NFL disciplinary matters,” Aiello said. “This matter has now been reviewed by Commissioner Goodell, two CBA grievance arbitrators, the CBA Appeals Panel, and Mr. Tagliabue as Commissioner Goodell’s designated appeals officer. The decisions have made clear that the Saints operated a bounty program in violation of league rules for three years, that the program endangered player safety, and that the commissioner has the authority under the CBA to impose discipline for those actions as conduct detrimental to the league. Strong action was taken in this matter to protect player safety and ensure that bounties would be eliminated from football.”

That’s factually correct, but the players had to fight and scratch and claw for due process, overcoming a flawed internal investigation effort that at times seems to be more concerned with P.R. than fairness and eventually forcing fairness only via an aggressive assault mounted by the players and the NFLPA in federal court.

“We respect Mr. Tagliabue’s decision, which underscores the due process afforded players in NFL disciplinary matters,” Aiello said.

which underscores the due process afforded players

due process

.

 

[pherein]

This whole Tags circus was a huge CYA for Goodell. I hope Vilma wins and wins big - then he goes after Goodell civilly.

Vilma intends to. He already turned down a deal from Tally to drop the case, in order to be reinstated, before this.
Benson has said unofficially that he will sue the NFL if Sean Payton leaves. Goodells canceling his contract was obviously a slap in the face on a small technicality , and never needed to happen.

Meaning Bensons lawyers have told him that the case even against the coaches is winnable.
Sean Payton has been heard to say that he will start his own case against Goodell as soon as he is reinstated. Meaning he also knows Goodell case is pretty weak. This is not over by a long shot.
In the end Im pretty confident Goodell will lose all of these court cases, as he has lost everyone sense.
Hes out of control, wasted our season, removed a good coach, Goodell needs to go.

Just for the record Tally's one man court had nothing to do with the coaches involvement, it was only focused on player involvement. ITs possible he will be presiding over a 2nd hearing assuming the coaches sue next. Which we think is likely.

 

[Joker]

hey sports fans....so...uh...what's new???

 

[MoLewisrocks]

interesting term used by the league on this one:

.

That would be due process under the CBA, which is all they are entitled to as members of a union that ratified one.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

One of my favorite fantasies. After helping the cheerleaders shower in their Halloween costumes, that is.

So in your fantasy you're in the shower with the cheerleaders - and they have clothes on????

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Vilma intends to. He already turned down a deal from Tally to drop the case, in order to be reinstated, before this.
Benson has said unofficially that he will sue the NFL is Sean Payton leaves. Goodells canceling his contract was obviously a slap in the face on a small technicality , and never needed to happen.

Meaning Bensons lawyers have told him that the case even against the coaches is winnable.
Sean Payton has been heard to say that he will start his own case against Goodell as soon as he is reinstated. Meaning he also knows Goodell case is pretty weak. This is not over by a long shot.
In the end Im pretty confident Goodell will lose all of these court cases, as he has lost everyone sense.
Hes out of control, wasted our season, removed a good coach, Goodell needs to go.

Just for the record Tally's one man court had nothing to do with the coaches involvement, it was only focused on player involvement. ITs possible he will be presiding over a 2nd hearing assuming the coaches sue next. Which we think is likely.

Here you go again. The coaches have no appeal. And Goodell hasn't lost any court cases yet. Instead he opted to avoid one. Which will only hurt the league's ability to enforce discipline long term. Tagliabue found the players did what they were accused of doing. He simply determined that their punishment wasn't warranted in part because they were unduly influenced by their employer...both to participate and to lie about participating. Vilma's attorney never wins his cases but he keeps filing them because he's an attention whore like his client.

You wasted your own season. Your management is to blame for what transpired. And your QB is to blame for allowing a distraction to persist and now he's just using it as an excuse.

 

[TyronePoole]

That would be due process under the CBA, which is all they are entitled to as members of a union that ratified one.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ut-bounty-gate-hearing-page2.html#post3063733

The NFL didn't show the evidence to the media until the hearings were over. Showed them the same damned evidence the NFLPA has been labeling specious (doesn't every defense lawyer claim that...) just on principle. They are never going to say oh, wait, now we see...you got us. The league has a right to spin public opinion in it's own defense when that is all the NFLPA and the players have been doing for months. Their arguments have failed at every turn, beyond creating sympathy or intermittent uncertainty within the media, including in front of 2 independent arbitrators they agreed to. Even Doty doesn't seem inclined to wade back into the fray because frankly it's all lame bs.

This is about Goodell retaining the power to discipline these clowns without having to watch them bamboozle some arbitrator or judge who thinks he's in court or worse yet some gullible jury...And thank god he did. The players had their chance to change the process. Didn't happen because their leadership remains enamored with % points. They should be lambasting their NFLPA leadership, the clowns they just re-elected. Same ones who set them up with a rookie wage scale and a flat cap for the next 5 years...

The players are getting exactly what they deserve because it's what they collectively bargained for.

These guys can't help themselves. Hell, a staggering percentage of them will be bankrupt in 5 years. Vilma's legal fees alone should insure he is. They don't need due process at this juncture, they need tough love discipline. There will be plenty of time for due process down the road, trust me..

cool story bro

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Florio's take on Tagliabue's ruling.


Tagliabue shows Goodell the way to implement a culture change | ProFootballTalk

Tagliabue cites “an important example” from the tenure of former Commissioner Pete Rozelle, who used “a short-term exemption from discipline as a means of swiftly facilitating an intensified effort to change a negative culture to enhance the health and safety of NFL players.” Tagliabue then explains (or, from Goodell’s perspective, lectures) the details.

"It was the 1980s. And the NFL was (finally) waking up to the problem of steroids. “Rozelle developed and implemented a set of policies, prohibitions and testing regimens to identify steroid abusers and eliminate the safety and health risks,” Tagliabue writes, knowing full well that Goodell knows this because he was working in the league office at the time. “[Rozelle] included a discipline-free transition year in the new policy. Rozelle warned one-year in advance that a discipline policy suspending players for steroid use would be implemented the following season. Four months prior to the enforcement of the policy, all players were advised by letter of the specific disciplinary actions for steroid use. For that year, Rozelle sharpened the rules and set escalating penalties while withholding player discipline. Rozelle recognized the realities of team operations and sought to ensure uniform compliance and enforcement in several dozen team workplaces. He understood that sometimes it is necessary to clarify the rules — make sure everyone understands; postpone discipline for a while, not forever, but maybe for a season; and then enforce the rules with strict discipline.”

In other words, Tagliabue is telling Goodell, as gently as possible, that he needs to pump the brakes the next time he wants to break balls over whatever longstanding problem he suddenly decides needs to be eradicated. The fact that Tagliabue sent the message in a 22-page document that has been disclosed for the media to study makes it even more of a slap by the master to his former servant."

 

[TyronePoole]

Tagliabue found the players did what they were accused of doing. He simply determined that their punishment wasn't warranted in part because they were unduly influenced by their employer...both to participate and to lie about participating.

Browns linebacker Scott Fujita fully exonerated | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

The Cleveland Browns' linebacker came out of this situation better than anyone because Tagliabue ruled he did not engage in "conduct detrimental to the league," as Goodell had asserted. Tagliabue specifically wrote he did "not find Fujita's conduct equivalent to the other players" because he did not offer money for injuries and did not interfere with the league's investigation.

"I find the NFL's contentions lacking in merit," Tagliabue wrote.

BTW, our last 'discussion' began with me saying the following:

I don't know about the rest of them, but the narrative that's been proposed in regards to Scott Fujita runs totally contrary to everything I've ever seen of him and his character inside and outside of the NFL. I am very skeptical that the NFL has a strong case against him.