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Serious question: does BB really have a "type" at QB?


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BB Priorities:

Physical ability to run the Offense, you can be the smartest guy in the world if you can't athletically get the job done. Not necessarily superman.

Football is important to the player, applies to all positions especially QB. Hard worker, leadership skills. Highly competitive.

Football IQ ability to run the O

Read the D, Make good decisions, protect the football. Derives from the points above.
 
Something to think about is that there are considerations beyond the QBs themselves the Patriots undoubtedly think about. Let's say for the sake of argument that the Patriots like both Jackson and Mason Rudolph equally as late first round picks, and feel either would be a good value and a good bet to succeed Brady as QB in a few years. A traditional pocket passer like Rudolph would be able to execute a similar offense to Brady and thus a continuation on the type of offensive personnel they seek. Jackson may require a different type of offense. Perhaps one that operates in shotgun 99% of the time, like the Marshawn Lynch era Seahawks. That offense might use TEs more in the Jimmy Graham role than the Gronk role. No fullbacks on roster. Perhaps different types of WRs, OLs, and RBs. If that's the case, the Patriots would gauge whether the future players in the pocket passer box are easier or harder to acquire going forward than the future players in the mobile passer box. I don't know the answer to that proposition, but if the Pats are confident in making either work, they might let their read of the market dictate their future direction. A large, overlooked part of Brady's greatness is that he excels without blue chip talent around him. There was a point a few years ago with Solder injured when the Patriots were simultaneously the best offense in the league and playing without a single first round offensive draft pick.

I remember when Ty Warren left the Patriots, he said the conversation between he and Bill was to the effect of "We like you, Ty, but going forward we're going to a 4-3 since that's the type of player that's more available right now, and that doesn't fit your skills." We saw it this offseason. When Nate Solder was signed by the Giants, it made a guy like Brandin Cooks, who's primarily a deep threat, less valuable to the team. When you're not confident in above average left tackle play, can you rely on an offensive scheme that requires an extra second or two of protection? It's all interrelated and goes beyond what the Pats think of any one QB.
 
Something to think about is that there are considerations beyond the QBs themselves the Patriots undoubtedly think about. Let's say for the sake of argument that the Patriots like both Jackson and Mason Rudolph equally as late first round picks, and feel either would be a good value and a good bet to succeed Brady as QB in a few years. A traditional pocket passer like Rudolph would be able to execute a similar offense to Brady and thus a continuation on the type of offensive personnel they seek. Jackson may require a different type of offense. Perhaps one that operates in shotgun 99% of the time, like the Marshawn Lynch era Seahawks. That offense might use TEs more in the Jimmy Graham role than the Gronk role. No fullbacks on roster. Perhaps different types of WRs, OLs, and RBs. If that's the case, the Patriots would gauge whether the future players in the pocket passer box are easier or harder to acquire going forward than the future players in the mobile passer box. I don't know the answer to that proposition, but if the Pats are confident in making either work, they might let their read of the market dictate their future direction. A large, overlooked part of Brady's greatness is that he excels without blue chip talent around him. There was a point a few years ago with Solder injured when the Patriots were simultaneously the best offense in the league and playing without a single first round offensive draft pick.

I remember when Ty Warren left the Patriots, he said the conversation between he and Bill was to the effect of "We like you, Ty, but going forward we're going to a 4-3 since that's the type of player that's more available right now, and that doesn't fit your skills." We saw it this offseason. When Nate Solder was signed by the Giants, it made a guy like Brandin Cooks, who's primarily a deep threat, less valuable to the team. When you're not confident in above average left tackle play, can you rely on an offensive scheme that requires an extra second or two of protection? It's all interrelated and goes beyond what the Pats think of any one QB.

To extend your thoughts a bit ...

Generally speaking, the OL that the Pats have acquired under BB and Scar have been better run-blockers than pass-blockers. That's not to say that any of them have been awful at pass-blocking, just that, generally, they've been much more pro-ready in terms of run-blocking. It's been Brady's quick/accurate reads and quick release, combined with smart, precise route-runners, that has created the very sophisticated short-intermediate range passing game that has allowed for this. In a nutshell, the OL generally hasn't needed to sustain their pass blocks very long because Brady gets the ball out so quickly (and successfully).

A significant side benefit to consistently acquiring very good run-blockers (including TEs) is that the Pats haven't really needed to acquire an "elite RB" in a long time. Even 2nd-tier and 3rd-tier RBs can usually gain the yardage required with the help of a great run-blocking corps. An RB who "can create on his own" would be kinda superfluous (not to mention, more expensive).

So, I agree 100% that a significant change in QB "style" would likely cause a cascade of changes in personnel types at other offensive positions.

Also, it's interesting that you bring up what BB said to Ty Warren. After Seymour was traded in 2009 (and After BB had spent 6th and 7th rounders on DTs who didn't fit a 3-4 scheme at all), I began to suspect that such a transition from a classic 3-4 to a 4-3 base was underway. Ty Warren's release in 2010, along with the acquisition of Gerard Warren and a couple other non-3-4 type players pretty much confirmed that, even though it didn't show up on the field until Camp.

However, the 4-3 to 3-4 swing that was in progress league-wide at that time (very possibly attempting to copy BB's success with 3-4 defenses) appears to be swinging back the other way.

Jonathan Hankins was a fairly decent NT in Indy's 3-4 last season, but they've switched to a 4-3 for 2018 and let him walk. He still hasn't found work. Connor Barwin is still looking for work, as is Navorro Bowman. The Browns had a 1st-round NT who'd performed well in their 3-4 for two seasons, and then gave him up pretty cheaply to the Pats after he failed to perform well in Gregg Williams' 4-3.

Anyway, it has me wondering if BB isn't about to "zag" again. He did acquire Lawrence Guy last season, 6041/305, coming out of the Ravens' 3-4 defense, and Adam Butler, 6037/280, who played some DE in college at a somewhat higher weight. With Valentine returning and Shelton now on the roster, BB has two suitable, young NTs.

So, perhaps the Pats contacts with DL prospects like Brown (6033/296), ****erson (6045/292), Hand (6035/297), Holmes (6047/283), Speaks (6027/283), Murphy (6025/295) and Nichols (6036/306) are about something more than just looking at potential interior pass-rushers or potential Malcolm Brown replacements, as many of us have assumed?

This is kinda how the 3-4 to 4-3 transition began. So, if there's a possibility of a switch back to a 3-4, how might that effect our evaluations some of the LBs and edge-players who are available in this draft?
 
Other than being physically able to throw a football, is there really any common thread about the QBs the Pats have picked since Brady?

  • Davey: big arm, terrible fit
  • Cassel: no game tape
  • O'Connell: strong arm, panicked under pressure
  • Hoyer: poised, smallish
  • Robinson: smallish, good stats (in Big XII)
  • Mallett: cannon arm, little touch
  • Garoppolo: smallish, no playbook offense
  • Brissett: strong, struggled with deep throws
I guess my point is simply this—I have no idea who BB thinks should be the next attempt at a QB of the future. Honestly, I think it could be anyone from Lamar Jackson to Kyle Lauletta to Chad Kanoff.

Great points but after the First Round you need a lot of Luck in selecting a quality QB in the NFL. Garoppolo turned out to be the cream of those crop of selections. Of course having Brady was more than a advantage for our Patriots. The QB position like any other in the Draft is a crapshoot.
 
When Nate Solder was signed by the Giants, it made a guy like Brandin Cooks, who's primarily a deep threat, less valuable to the team. When you're not confident in above average left tackle play, can you rely on an offensive scheme that requires an extra second or two of protection? It's all interrelated and goes beyond what the Pats think of any one QB.

I think the calculus was simply "1 year of Cooks @ $7M + ??? in the future vs. a first-round pick this year." I think that even if they had the money to resign Solder and keep Cooks that offer would have led them to move Cooks.
 
BB has often made it clear that there's nobody he'd rather have than Brady at QB. He knows that the next QB of the NEP won't be nearly as good. So he's looking for the next guy who can be the best QB that NE can get.

No clue if there's a "mold" that he works from.
 
An intelligent coachable one
 
Curious wondering why you think they won't draft a QB this year.

There can't be a better year than this year.

A couple of reasons:

1. I don't see BB cashing in all or most of his assets to move up far enough in this year's draft to pick a top ranked QB but I do see him trading picks into the next couple of years to move up while gaining additional second and third round picks.

2. If you're planning for the post Brady years building a top ranked defense is the way to go imo. It helps both Brady now and the rookie QB later.

So I think he's going to trade one of the first round picks for a possibly higher first round pick next year and draft defensively with the rest. Or something along those lines. If they've targeted an OT I could see that too.

They may draft a QB in the late second or third round as a possible developmental project. If he turns out to be the guy they think could be the next guy then they have a high first round pick in the next draft to play around with.

I never buy into the "this is the best draft for a ..." stuff.
 
A couple of reasons:

1. I don't see BB cashing in all or most of his assets to move up far enough in this year's draft to pick a top ranked QB but I do see him trading picks into the next couple of years to move up while gaining additional second and third round picks.

Agree. He won't but I don't think he'll have to.

2. If you're planning for the post Brady years building a top ranked defense is the way to go imo. It helps both Brady now and the rookie QB later.

Agree but having a good D is dependent on having picks and cap space. My response above is predicated on the team having enough draft picks to draft a QB mid/late in Rd 1 and pick up 2-3 decent defensive players in the top 4 rounds. Keep in mind 2019 cap space.

So I think he's going to trade one of the first round picks for a possibly higher first round pick next year and draft defensively with the rest. Or something along those lines. If they've targeted an OT I could see that too.

They may draft a QB in the late second or third round as a possible developmental project. If he turns out to be the guy they think could be the next guy then they have a high first round pick in the next draft to play around with.

I never buy into the "this is the best draft for a ..." stuff.

All is possible.
 
It all depends on what BB sees as the future of the NFL. Does he see it playing out the way it is now? Or does he see the game becoming faster with less contact. The rules are changing every year away from contact. A scrambler in a league of less hitting would be a god. But does he give up the arm for the legs?
 
Type?

BB has said and/or shown that he's looking for a QB that he thinks can handle the position as it is today and as it's trending towards for tomorrow, regardless of a specific systemic "type", which is how he ended up with JAG and Jacoby as backups. Unfortunately, what seems to be his biggest weakness in drafting in general is also an apparent weakness when it comes to targeting QBs:

BB can sometimes fall too much in love with the measurables/athleticism at the expense of the realities (i.e. KOC and RM).
 
What about Cat like quickness? - both mentally and physically ?


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Bill loves 'em smart and shifty. :)
 
I think if you look at that list (you missed a couple , kliff kingsbury, Matt Gutierrez) and FAs he has brought in you see guys expected to become pocket passers. Their level of quality depends a lot on where they were drafted.
I keep thinking the target is Luke falk with the later 2nd or the 3rd.
And waiting another year is an option as well.

As far as I can tell, next years class looks far worse than this years. One the other paw, maybe most of the teams shopping for QBs will get them this year.
 
Great points but after the First Round you need a lot of Luck in selecting a quality QB in the NFL. Garoppolo turned out to be the cream of those crop of selections. Of course having Brady was more than a advantage for our Patriots. The QB position like any other in the Draft is a crapshoot.

You should also keep in mind that none of those guys before JG were drafted with an eye toward becoming THE successor.
 
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