PATRIOTS NEWS Sad to see BB's legacy ripped apart like this

[Ring 6]

he built a dynasty with most of the players drafted by one Duane Charles Parcells

100% incorrect

 

[Midship]

I actually believe both Bill and Tom are declining at similar, slow rates. TB's is masked by going to a talented roster with an all-world receiving corps. BB's is exacerbated by losing the Goat, Gronk, and Edelman on O and the core of the D (HT, DMac, maybe Chung to a lesser extent) reaching the end of their careers all at about the same time. BB's shortcomings are seen in being light on talent to fill these holes. But, this large roster turnover was coming one way or another with the need to establish new stalwarts on both sides of the ball. I'm still optimistic about this team gelling and developing going into next season.

Tom Brady single handedly elevated the ****ing Bucs to a super bowl last year and is currently 5-1 on his way to another NFC title game minimum- to compare his "decline" since he left NE to Bill's is absolutely hilarious homerism. Dude is thriving, best QB in the league, while Bill's team is on the verge of irrelevance and poor coaching/roster construction (both of which fall 100% on Bill) are the biggest reasons why.

I hate that the post Brady era is shaping up this way, but I'm not going to pretend this team is something it's not.

 

[mikey m]

Tom Brady single handedly elevated the ****ing Bucs to a super bowl last year and is currently 5-1 on his way to another NFC title game minimum- to compare his "decline" since he left NE to Bill's is absolutely hilarious homerism. Dude is thriving, best QB in the league, while Bill's team is on the verge of irrelevance and poor coaching/roster construction (both of which fall 100% on Bill) are the biggest reasons why.

I hate that the post Brady era is shaping up this way, but I'm not going to pretend this team is something it's not.

If my perspective is skewed, yours is 10x more so in the other direction.

 

[Midship]

If my perspective is skewed, yours is 10x more so in the other direction.

Resorting to being intentionally obtuse is not a good look.

 

[mikey m]

Resorting to being intentionally obtuse is not a good look.

So stop?

 

[TomPatriot]

Come on, man. Tom House has helped Brady with his throwing motion for years. That doesn't mean that Tom House is/was a great quarterback.

Oh, ffs. This analogy is impaired. There is a pretty good correlation between good NFL executives and the success of their subordinates. Bill has done a really good job of putting teams together in the past. He has admittedly had a dry stretch in recent years. Bedard may be right: when he decided that he wanted to coach only the players he wanted to coach, the quality of the talent declined.

The guy has 8 rings. Like his disciples, he put a lot of talent on the field to get six of those rings.

 

[TomPatriot]

If my perspective is skewed, yours is 10x more so in the other direction.

It took Todd Licht nearly a decade to build that roster.

 

[Nehalem]

Still believe 1) Moss could and should have had that one if he really tried to get it and 2) that was a TD if it was thrown a couple of feet further. Probably an ending that wouldn't ever be matched in pro sports given what was at stake.

I take it you stopped watching football for 10 years after SB42.

I suggest giving SB49 and SB51 a watch.

 

[Deus Irae]

If my perspective is skewed, yours is 10x more so in the other direction.

No.... No.... He's got it pretty much dead on. Playing the "team game" card isn't going to work on this one.

 

[Deus Irae]

Oh, ffs. This analogy is impaired. There is a pretty good correlation between good NFL executives and the success of their subordinates. Bill has done a really good job of putting teams together in the past. He has admittedly had a dry stretch in recent years. Bedard may be right: when he decided that he wanted to coach only the players he wanted to coach, the quality of the talent declined.

The guy has 8 rings. Like his disciples, he put a lot of talent on the field to get six of those rings.

Many people surpass their mentors, in all fields. And, in sports, crappy players go on to become excellent teachers and/or coaches, and lesser execs teach those who become their superiors. Hell, there's even a popular expression on this, though it's usually used for more extreme cases: "Those who can't do, teach".

And the number of rings doesn't automatically mean he's a great GM. Again, come on. Two of those rings were when he was a D.C., for crying out loud.

 

[TomPatriot]

Many people surpass their mentors, in all fields. Crappy players go on to become excellent teachers and/or coaches. Hell, there's even a popular expression on this, though it's usually used for more extreme cases: "Those who can't do, teach".

And the number of rings doesn't automatically mean he's a great GM. Again, come on.

Ok, if it were one guy, I’d say you had a point. But 3? Not likely. Hell, his front office guys have done better than his ex-coaches.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Also, without comparing our roster with others around the league, I think I'd have to disagree here. I think we have young talent or potential in most areas on the field.

OL - As much as they has driven us mad, it is an extremely young unit (particularly with Brown not contributing).
TE - young and set for years if Smith can get his act together.
WR - happy to have Meyers and Bourne on board, just need another piece here
RB - I feel good about Harris, Stevenson, Taylor, particularly when Stevenson earns the trust to take a little more of the load.

DL - hoping Barmore continues to develop into a central piece for the D. Godchaux and Cowart are moderately young and ok. Need more talent here.
LB - Uche, otherwise old as dirt. Optimistic about McMillan and Mcgrone. Need more talent here
CB - resign Jackson. Have other solid youth/depth. I'm sure we'll all be hoping to find that elite #1 again somewhere.
Safety - Love Dugger. Need to address FS.

I actually feel good about the future of the O if we can solidify the LT spot. The D will need some work, but a lot can get done in an offseason. Maybe I got my rose colored glasses on, but damnit Fall and football are here and I ain't taking em off anytime soon.

They have some solid young players; I just don’t see them on the level of most other teams in the league. They’ve picked in the high 20s almost every year and never got a “haul” through some big trade. Trying to be objective here, and I realize it isn’t a perfect measure, but which drafted players are even pro bowl considerations right now? Sure, we have a bunch of glass half full guys, some who you listed, but every fan base can say “I have a good feeling about him” and “he’s still developing.” But Meyers, Harris, Uche, Dugger, Onwenu…these guys compared to what other teams can boast about as their top 5 young star players that make up the team’s nucleus?

 

[mikey m]

They have some solid young players; I just don’t see them on the level of most other teams in the league. They’ve picked in the high 20s almost every year and never got a “haul” through some big trade. Trying to be objective here, and I realize it isn’t a perfect measure, but which drafted players are even pro bowl considerations right now? Sure, we have a bunch of glass half full guys, some who you listed, but every fan base can say “I have a good feeling about him” and “he’s still developing.” But Meyers, Harris, Uche, Dugger, Onwenu…these guys compared to what other teams can boast about as their top 5 young star players that make up the team’s nucleus?

I can't disagree. Admittedly I can't even provide a significant response because I don't follow any other team's players closely. All I can go off of is my feeling and fanhood that tells me if we shore up the OL and Jones develops into a very good (hopefully great) qb, if our other young guys make reasonable improvements, and we add a few more pieces specifically on defense, then we are right back in the playoff conversation if not next season, then the one after. It's a lot of ifs, but none of them would be crazy (with the worst odds probably being lucking out with another qb).

Ultimately, it all comes down to Mac. If he's a great one, then the rest of our young guys will be a solid enough supporting cast to make noise in the playoffs. If not, we start this process over again in a few years. Such is post Brady life. I still love the ride.

 

[BobDigital]

Also we need a to ask, even if he never makes they playoffs again, how much does that ruin his legacy? He is likely no longer the GOAT in a lot of peoples minds, but he still needs to be in the top 10 if not top 5. Too many good things have happened around him to ever knock him to far down the list. And to say this team would have been just as successful with a number of other coaches is a huge stretch.

Things that can never be taken from BB.

1 The intentional safety call. Not many if any coaches intentionally do that, particularly back on 2003 before all the talk of analytics pick up.
2 Taking the elements against Manning and with Brady in OT. That was a big boy move. Again no other coach does that I think.
3 The ineligable man against the ravens in 2014. We talk about how the D let us down that game, but we must remember how big these plays were too.
And a number more. Not to mention how often he seamlessly changed schemes and defenses. That is hard to do. Most coaches are too in loce with one style to fit the D to their players.

Perhaps he's no longer the same coach. Maybe there is something to the game passing him by. It eventually happens to everyone. No one is as sharp at 70 as they are at 50. Cleary he made some big moves and choices that paid off in the past. That can't be taken away. Does the coach he is right now mean the coach he was in the past wasn't legit?

 

[Ian]

Perhaps he's no longer the same coach. Maybe there is something to the game passing him by. It eventually happens to everyone. No one is as sharp at 70 as they are at 50. Cleary he made some big moves and choices that paid off in the past. That can't be taken away. Does the coach he is right now mean the coach he was in the past wasn't legit?

You say that, but that's like saying Brady is no longer as good at 44 as he was at 34. But is he still better than 95% of his competition? That's really all that matters.

 

[captain stone]

Bill is such a bad GM that he mentored John Robinson, Ozzie, and, this year’s executive darling, Jason Licht. All of them built really good football teams.

And...?

 

[203Pat]

The last thing I want to think about is parameters for reasons to fire BB. All I care about is Mac's growth. He does look like a future top QB to me right now. If he continues to grow I think next year we'll see the playoffs.

I'll admit I don't know what are cap situation is next year but I think Mac will need to take a major leap to overcome what will likely be a bad defense next year. If Watson does indeed come to the Dolphins I think they take a major step forward and makes the battle for an AFC playoff spot even tougher. Not saying Mac can't make a big leap and obviously we are far off from next offseason but I think this roster is going to have a lot of turnover primarily on defense.

 

[sb1]

Also we need a to ask, even if he never makes they playoffs again, how much does that ruin his legacy? He is likely no longer the GOAT in a lot of peoples minds, but he still needs to be in the top 10 if not top 5. Too many good things have happened around him to ever knock him to far down the list. And to say this team would have been just as successful with a number of other coaches is a huge stretch.

Things that can never be taken from BB.

1 The intentional safety call. Not many if any coaches intentionally do that, particularly back on 2003 before all the talk of analytics pick up.
2 Taking the elements against Manning and with Brady in OT. That was a big boy move. Again no other coach does that I think.
3 The ineligable man against the ravens in 2014. We talk about how the D let us down that game, but we must remember how big these plays were too.
And a number more. Not to mention how often he seamlessly changed schemes and defenses. That is hard to do. Most coaches are too in loce with one style to fit the D to their players.

Perhaps he's no longer the same coach. Maybe there is something to the game passing him by. It eventually happens to everyone. No one is as sharp at 70 as they are at 50. Cleary he made some big moves and choices that paid off in the past. That can't be taken away. Does the coach he is right now mean the coach he was in the past wasn't legit?

Only Spygate permanently damaged BB's legacy. The fact his team struggled a bit without Brady will be forgotten. Nobody cares today that Noll stopped winning without Bradshaw or Walsh didn't win anything without Montana. Or the end of Landry's coaching career. They're considered all time great coaches like Bill.

The GOAT argument is a really tough one to make for Bill if you don't count rings. Rings are a team stat.

I think it's fair to question some of the in game decisions we're seeing today. Whether it's from Bill, Josh or some other coach.

 

[captain stone]

You say that, but that's like saying Brady is no longer as good at 44 as he was at 34. But is he still better than 95% of his competition? That's really all that matters.

Bill is absolutely, positively, NOT > 95% of his competition.

 

[203Pat]

I have said it before and it still holds true. Bill could take a crap at midfield in the middle of a game and half the board would praise and defend him.