Sad to see BB's legacy ripped apart like this

[Ian]

I'm a systems admin. I apologize Ian, had too much coffee. I will head off and do something else for now. See you guys in awhile.

And LOL, I'm good with that. It's Wednesday and have to finish these snap counts and still have another half to go through. The offensive line being terrible and rotating different guys in and out is making this week take forever since it's so hard to pull the numbers as it is, especially with Gamepass now being borderline unusable.

 

[venecol]

C'mon, you know fully well It's not about the record. It's about Jones and his development. If Brady is here he pushes that back. 20 years of history doesn't mean anything when our team is on a huge downslope and Bills are a superior team, with or without Brady who struggled to move this offense for significant stretches in his final season here.

Tom Brady to Bills fans: "I still own you!"

 

[mikey m]

Lots of teams have talent around them and do not do what Brady is doing. Watching his throws, I actually see it being a bit better now than it was 3 or 4 years ago. Its not like he is throwing a 2 yard pass and a guy is running through tackles for 90 yards. He is throwing dimes. I cannot see where the regress is. Bill is kinda the same way. He is coaching a competitive team that should not really be competitive, that is what he does. Rook QB, complete change over of a roster. I do not see the drop of either.

I see Brady throwing to WRs who consistently win their matchups and create separation. Hell, in many games opposing teams are losing all three battles WR 1/2/3 vs CB 1/2/3. Tom could almost just lock in on any one of them from the snap and still have success. Watching the games, I do not feel like Tom is at the level of 5-10 years ago, not that he should be, or that he's all that far from it.

 

[mikey m]

Tom Brady to Bills fans: "I still own you!"

Haha, wait you're not implying that I'm a Bills fan right? Either way, after this thread, that Bucs vs Bills game later in the season will be extra fun.

 

[Pats1971]

I see Brady throwing to WRs who consistently win their matchups and create separation. Hell, in many games opposing teams are losing all three battles WR 1/2/3 vs CB 1/2/3. Tom could almost just lock in on any one of them from the snap and still have success. Watching the games, I do not feel like Tom is at the level of 5-10 years ago, not that he should be, or that he's all that far from it.

Yeah, I actually his throws being better. He is throwing into tight windows better than he ever has. This was shown on a grade point by PFF. Watching his throws right now, it actually looks a bit better than it did 5 years ago. Where he is throwing the ball, you do not really need to be a good receiver to make the catch. I saw a throw to brown the week before last that went into a window about the size of the football from 20 yards away while he had a guy right in his face. He is more throwing guys open than throwing to open guys. The thing that goes with QB's in their ball speed, I am trying to remember when I have seen it better.

 

[Tony2046]

iWell I dont feel at this point that the QB position has been fixed. It has been started over with an unkinown future. Fixed means the position is operating like it was before. It has a possibility of being fixed some day. The defense is actually less to be fixed. They are top 10 in points given up this year, that has won superbowls before. I have sat watching games for years screaming that the D cannot get off the field on 3rd down or some iffy Qb lighting us up, and then we won the superbowl that year. From a rebuild standpoint, they have just started.

Of course you don't feel like the QB is "fixed". It wouldn't fit your "spoiled for twenty years" narrative.

No fan base has ever had it better but you want more. Spoiled.

Troll somewhere else. Rob Parker wanna be.

 

[Pats1971]

Of course you don't feel like the QB is "fixed". It wouldn't fit your "spoiled for twenty years" narrative.

No fan base has ever had it better but you want more. Spoiled.

Troll somewhere else. Rob Parker wanna be.

No, I say that because fixed means completed, if you think this is all Jones will ever be, then I am not sure that is having much faith in him.
To give you an example. The first 6 games of Minshew's career is actually better than the first 6 games of Jones career. So everything was fixed with the QB position of the jags? Not really. Fixed means operating at full capacity, its not. Its not a knock, its a reality of a guy who has played 6 games.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Brady was not going to make a super bowl run with this team. It is too flawed for which the gm deserves criticism. If Brady were here, we'd be competing to squeeze into the playoffs at best and would have gotten nowhere with developing a promising rookie qb. It absolutely would have pushed the future of this franchise back several years. Now, some may have considered it worth to spend a few more years of watching Brady in a Pats uniform and ideally retire in it. I'd prefer to have Jones.

I’m glad they drafted Mac, too. Not sure about preferring him over a few more years of Brady, but that’s okay…sure, if he winds up becoming a 15-year franchise QB then maybe the tradeoff is worth it. It’s not really about Mac so much for me, though…I mean, whether he pans put or not doesn’t connect directly to the 2020 offseason unless they had some master plan all along to draft him.

I just wish they had simply gone with what you said, which is they were going nowhere in 2020 with Stidham/Newton. So declining to trade Gilmore, spending their money on old veterans, and just failing to actually build for the future, that’s my gripe. And I’m okay with Bill overestimating his ability to fix the roster without a complete rebuild, but I’m not okay with the revisionism around it. They gambled they’d compete in 2020 and went all in with what they had, underestimating the drop off in QB play. Now they’re in a rebuild with a young QB, but they have very few young players or draft picks to build around. It’s strange how willing they were to trade assets during championship contention years but how reluctant they’ve been during the non-championship year.

 

[Tony2046]

That not really what I mean. I am not saying it has to be the same as before, but I think right now the things that have to improve still exist. There is no way that the QB position could be fixed in 6 games with a rookie QB, thats what I mean, I dont think that part is "fixed" yet, Its in process. Fixed to me means he is at his apex of where he needs to be. It would be hard to be there at this point. I call that position incomplete right now, because its way to early in the process.

Rob Parker has entered the chatroom.

 

[Pats1971]

Rob Parker has entered the chatroom.

It seems you do not know who Rob Parker is. Rob Parker has made his living out of ripping Tom Brady. If you are going to try and insult me at least be a little more creative and accurate with who you compare me with. As I said, its not accurate to say that position is fixed. Because it wasnt broken, it was replaced. The replacement piece is not operating yet at where the prior piece was because it is too new. It is a work in progress not a finality.

 

[Tony2046]

No, I say that because fixed means completed, if you think this is all Jones will ever be, then I am not sure that is having much faith in him.
To give you an example. The first 6 games of Minshew's career is actually better than the first 6 games of Jones career. So everything was fixed with the QB position of the jags? Not really. Fixed means operating at full capacity, its not. Its not a knock, its a reality of a guy who has played 6 games.

I take it that you haven't watched any of their games because comparing Jones to Minshew is laughable.

Try again Rob Parker.

 

[FCB02062]

The patriots have 13 players playing now that were on the field in the last SB win 3 years ago, 3 of which are special teamers only.
Approximately 40% of the offensive and defensive snaps last Sunday were by players who were not here last year.

Belichick built a dynasty and won because he had players biting into his system. He had to tear it down and start over. Why are people surprised that a new group of players don’t have the characteristics yet that were built into a team over a 20 year run?

he built a dynasty with most of the players drafted by one Duane Charles Parcells

 

[Tony2046]

It seems you do not know who Rob Parker is. Rob Parker has made his living out of ripping Tom Brady. If you are going to try and insult me at least be a little more creative and accurate with who you compare me with. As I said, its not accurate to say that position is fixed. Because it wasnt broken, it was replaced. The replacement piece is not operating yet at where the prior piece was because it is too new. It is a work in progress not a finality.

How about Debbie Downer? Does that work?

 

[Tony2046]

he built a dynasty with most of the players drafted by one Duane Charles Parcells

For Twenty years? Dude! One of your worst takes evah.

 

[mikey m]

I’m glad they drafted Mac, too. Not sure about preferring him over a few more years of Brady, but that’s okay…sure, if he winds up becoming a 15-year franchise QB then maybe the tradeoff is worth it. It’s not really about Mac so much for me, though…I mean, whether he pans put or not doesn’t connect directly to the 2020 offseason unless they had some master plan all along to draft him.

I just wish they had simply gone with what you said, which is they were going nowhere in 2020 with Stidham/Newton. So declining to trade Gilmore, spending their money on old veterans, and just failing to actually build for the future, that’s my gripe. And I’m okay with Bill overestimating his ability to fix the roster without a complete rebuild, but I’m not okay with the revisionism around it. They gambled they’d compete in 2020 and went all in with what they had, underestimating the drop off in QB play. Now they’re in a rebuild with a young QB, but they have very few young players or draft picks to build around. It’s strange how willing they were to trade assets during championship contention years but how reluctant they’ve been during the non-championship year.

Fair. As far as Mac, if I'm understanding you correctly, my point would be that keeping Brady keeps us winning more games and drafting lower. The 2020 offseason didn't have to be about specifically Mac, but about having higher draft capital to get a good prospect and opening up the qb position so that guy could actually see the field.
Would agree that the Gilmore situation was mishandled. In general, I don't mind the spending money on veterans. They still have value in a rebuild - establishing a culture, teaching the youngsters, etc.

 

[Pats1971]

How about Debbie Downer? Does that work?

Who is downer? I am speaking of what is. I do not make predictions unless something backs it up in some way, and I do not use a prediction to base an argument on something. Mac could turn out to be the greatest QB that ever played, or he could be a middle of the pack guy or he could be out of the league in 5 years. Nothing is known. On the other side, a Qb could start out bad and then turn into greatness. To give an example of this. Right now through 6 games Jones and Mineshew had the same QBR through their first 6 games. I think we are hoping that Jones expands a bit past backup on bad team who is inactive on game day.

 

[Pats1971]

Fair. As far as Mac, if I'm understanding you correctly, my point would be that keeping Brady keeps us winning more games and drafting lower. The 2020 offseason didn't have to be about specifically Mac, but about having higher draft capital to get a good prospect and opening up the qb position so that guy could actually see the field.
Would agree that the Gilmore situation was mishandled. In general, I don't mind the spending money on veterans. They still have value in a rebuild - establishing a culture, teaching the youngsters, etc.

As I said before, there is not fault to me in the Brady situation. Bill had no idea what Brady could keep doing because he does not have past experiences that show it could be done. Both people had to do what was best for them. All players are going to say they can still do something, so you take that with a grain of salt. brady proved he could, but who knew? There could have been a couple other factors but nothing as nefarious as it was made out.

Gilmore was just bad timing. Bill does not want to get stuck in a bad contract. Gilmore getting hurt screwed up everything, and really that is something you cannot predict or count on. Beyond popular belief, the pats have rebuilt many times in the last 20 years, this is just the first time they had to do it without Brady so it might look different for awhile.

 

[mikey m]

Now they’re in a rebuild with a young QB, but they have very few young players or draft picks to build around.

Also, without comparing our roster with others around the league, I think I'd have to disagree here. I think we have young talent or potential in most areas on the field.

OL - As much as they has driven us mad, it is an extremely young unit (particularly with Brown not contributing).
TE - young and set for years if Smith can get his act together.
WR - happy to have Meyers and Bourne on board, just need another piece here
RB - I feel good about Harris, Stevenson, Taylor, particularly when Stevenson earns the trust to take a little more of the load.

DL - hoping Barmore continues to develop into a central piece for the D. Godchaux and Cowart are moderately young and ok. Need more talent here.
LB - Uche, otherwise old as dirt. Optimistic about McMillan and Mcgrone. Need more talent here
CB - resign Jackson. Have other solid youth/depth. I'm sure we'll all be hoping to find that elite #1 again somewhere.
Safety - Love Dugger. Need to address FS.

I actually feel good about the future of the O if we can solidify the LT spot. The D will need some work, but a lot can get done in an offseason. Maybe I got my rose colored glasses on, but damnit Fall and football are here and I ain't taking em off anytime soon.

 

[TomPatriot]

Bill is such a bad GM that he mentored John Robinson, Ozzie, and, this year’s executive darling, Jason Licht. All of them built really good football teams.

 

[Deus Irae]

Bill is such a bad GM that he mentored John Robinson, Ozzie, and, this year’s executive darling, Jason Licht. All of them built really good football teams.

Come on, man. Tom House has helped Brady with his throwing motion for years. That doesn't mean that Tom House is/was a great quarterback.