Reid vs BB at developing QBs

[amfootball]

I have to say this discussion is fascinating as I remember back when Brady won the SB with Tampa, many didn't believe that that win did anything for his legacy as he was already the GOAT. Now here we are with Bill and folks are looking at what he had done without Brady as Andy has a very impressive resume without Mahomes. Brady winning in Tampa forever separated him from Bill so when folks look at his career, they see the GOAT apart from Bill. They see a QB that transformed the losingest franchise in NFL history and won his 7th ring at age 43. It really does make the debate for greatest QB a moot point.

 

[sb1]

This narrative about BB without Brady just proves what Bill has already said lots of times. It's the players and only the players who win games. They matter more than a coach. Since the QB is the most important player, gimme an all time great QB anyday over an all time great coach. The Patriots had both for a long time and we saw the results.

Great coaches like BB can only do so much, they can't take a bad or mediocre team to a championship (case in point 2000, 2020-2022) but weak coaches can be carried by a great QB and team a long way. Like Peyton Manning carrying Jim Caldwell to the Super Bowl. Terrible coaching can also make a good team underachieve and we've seen that happen around the league including in NE.

Would Bill make the 0-16 Lions or Browns a playoff team? No way no how. Players matter more.

 

[Jim Beankie]

Gonna have to go with BB here, and that's without my biased goggles on.

AReid era Drafted QBs
Mahomes
Kevin Hogan
Aaron Murray
Matt Barkley
Nick Foles
Mike Kafka
Kevin Kolb
Andy Hall
AJ Feeley
McNabb

BB Drafted QBs
Zappe
Macaroni
Stiddy
Etling
Brissett
El Guapolo
Mallett
Zac Robinson
Kevin O'Connell
Cassel
Kliff Kingsbury
Don't Mess with the Rohan
JAGOAT

 

[Jim Beankie]

I have to say this discussion is fascinating as I remember back when Brady won the SB with Tampa, many didn't believe that that win did anything for his legacy as he was already the GOAT. Now here we are with Bill and folks are looking at what he had done without Brady as Andy has a very impressive resume without Mahomes. Brady winning in Tampa forever separated him from Bill so when folks look at his career, they see the GOAT apart from Bill. They see a QB that transformed the losingest franchise in NFL history and won his 7th ring at age 43. It really does make the debate for greatest QB a moot point.

It helps that Andy's resume without Mahomes is mostly with a 2nd overall pick at the beginning of Andy's career and a 1st overall pick at the beginning of his 2nd coaching stint. A lot of luck and certainly a lot of skill as we've all seen.

 

[All3Phases]

It helps that Andy's resume without Mahomes is mostly with a 2nd overall pick at the beginning of Andy's career and a 1st overall pick at the beginning of his 2nd coaching stint. A lot of luck and certainly a lot of skill as we've all seen.

BB had the first overall pick as his qb when he took over the 2000 Patriots and now he has the 15th overall pick

 

[Jim Beankie]

BB had the first overall pick as his qb when he took over the 2000 Patriots and now he has the 15th overall pick

1) He won the SB the next year, so that point is moot.
2) Mac was the 5th overall QB picked. McNabb and Mahomes were 2nd overall and ASmith 1st. Pretty big difference.

 

[All3Phases]

1) He won the SB the next year, so that point is moot.

With Brady, he was 5-13 with Bledsoe

2) Mac was the 5th overall QB picked. McNabb and Mahomes were 2nd overall and ASmith 1st. Pretty big difference.

So do you care more about the skill level of the player or where they were picked? Have to make up your mind. Do you consider Trubisky a better player than Mahomes?

 

[sb1]

Gonna have to go with BB here, and that's without my biased goggles on.

AReid era Drafted QBs
Mahomes
Kevin Hogan
Aaron Murray
Matt Barkley
Nick Foles
Mike Kafka
Kevin Kolb
Andy Hall
AJ Feeley
McNabb

BB Drafted QBs
Zappe
Macaroni
Stiddy
Etling
Brissett
El Guapolo
Mallett
Zac Robinson
Kevin O'Connell
Cassel
Kliff Kingsbury
Don't Mess with the Rohan
JAGOAT

when I saw the name AJ Feeley I just remembered that it was Andy Reid’s Eagles that nearly ended our undefeated season in 2007 as 21 point underdogs. Great coaching…

 

[sb1]

It helps that Andy's resume without Mahomes is mostly with a 2nd overall pick at the beginning of Andy's career and a 1st overall pick at the beginning of his 2nd coaching stint. A lot of luck and certainly a lot of skill as we've all seen.

Yeah that’s what I was trying to say earlier in the topic. Also got to work with Favre in Green Bay.

 

[Guts]

Maybe this deserves a thread lock before my boys craw and Mac 10 come out of the shadows

 

[Jim Beankie]

With Brady, he was 5-13 with Bledsoe

So do you care more about the skill level of the player or where they were picked? Have to make up your mind. Do you consider Trubisky a better player than Mahomes?

Definitely fair point (which I had thought about even before your original reply). Bledsoe was on the way down but ASmith was a 2 seasons out of a 13-3 record with SFO. One could say that a better QB developing coach could've coaxed a better record than the 2000 Pats did, and BB must've figured Drew was good enough with that mega extension.

I care about both. Just responding to what you said regarding Mac's being picked 15th. Sure he was 15th, but he was still the 5th QB. We can play MMQB at this point, but teams believed Turbinsky's skill level at the time was higher than Mahomes. Who's to say Pübes wouldn't have a SB win right now with Kelce and Tyreek and Andy? (hahah sorry I almost wrote that without bursting out laughing - that being said, Pübes has a pretty decent starting record especially that 11-3 with CHI with way less).

 

[borg]

It helps that Andy's resume without Mahomes is mostly with a 2nd overall pick at the beginning of Andy's career and a 1st overall pick at the beginning of his 2nd coaching stint. A lot of luck and certainly a lot of skill as we've all seen.

No mention BB's resume included a former #1 overall QB when Bill arrived in NE as HC?
His "development" skills must not have kicked in yet

 

[TheRainMaker]

What hurts Bill is simply the fact that his regular and postseason success without Brady is way too pedestrian:

79-87 (.476)
0 division titles
7 losing seasons, 3 winning seasons
2 playoff appearances
1 playoff win

This isn't hate, this is factual. This is not a good look. If he was another coach with this 10 season resume... we'd say that he was just one of those defensive minded Head coaches that eventually got fired a la Rex Ryan, Mike Zimmer, etc. If you're resume is like this without Brady, people are just going to naturally attribute your success to him.

As where Reid without mahomes

(.600)
4 NFC title games
1 super bowl
A bunch of division titles and playoff appearances

With McNabb and Smith and Vick as QBs. None of them are hall of famers. He revitalized Vick's career.

No one is saying Belichick has to win 5 rings without Brady. But it's not a good look for his GOAT case that he has literally struggled to even make the playoffs without him, while we've seen several coaches make deep playoff runs with mid QBs (Rex Ryan, 90s Bill Cowher, Jim Harbaugh in 2011). Especially given his reputation as a guy who can win with anyone.

This is where I'm at. I don't expect titles, but expect Bill to go on playoff runs like other Coaches with mid QB's and/or teams. The longer this continues without Brady, the media will get louder with criticism of Bill saying he was only good with Brady. He can't have another 8-9 season, missing the playoffs with now 7 teams when he's also the GM. That's a bad look.

On the other hand, Reid ended up in a good situation where he picked the right guy with McNabb where it seems many fans don't realize he was a pretty good QB and took his game to another level when TO arrived. This is a common theme today with many other QB's.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Let me put it to you this way. There’s no way Bill Belichick would’ve lost three straight NFC championship games with the players Reid had. And Reid had a shot in the Super Bowl they lost, and his questionable decisions certainly didn’t help him. That’s the difference between the two coaches.

Would he have even made it to 3 straight conf championships with Donovan McNabb at QB?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Andy's overall coaching resume is impressive. Really no blemishes. But he had a lot of chokes in big games and terrible clock management too. That being said, he has Mahomes and if he was to win another 2 rings, I think it is a fair discussion.

He would have taken a field goal over a 4th and 13 from the 31 yard line in a low scoring SB and immortality on the line. So there's that. Also of note he didn't tank a Super Bowl by benching a starter for one of the worst backups in the league in order to demonstrate the team's values.

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Hmmm.... some posts have been removed from this thread

 

[sb1]

He would have taken a field goal over a 4th and 13 from the 31 yard line in a low scoring SB and immortality on the line. So there's that. Also of note he didn't tank a Super Bowl by benching a starter for one of the worst backups in the league in order to demonstrate the team's values.

Re the FG it would have been interesting to see if Bill would have made the same choice if AV was still here. I'd guess he would choose to kick.

The Butler decision was a crime against the team and us fans.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Would he have even made it to 3 straight conf championships with Donovan McNabb at QB?

Probably. They had some pretty good teams and coaching staff in a very weak NFC. However, the Eagles had no business losing to Tampa Bay and Carolina even with their bad receiving corps. Rams was understandable in 2001, they were overmatched.

He would have taken a field goal over a 4th and 13 from the 31 yard line in a low scoring SB and immortality on the line.

Andy Reid has sure flipped a 180 from his conservative days in Philly. Starting in 2019 Super Bowl against the 49ers, he does not played scared anymore.

Let's also not forget Bill not challenging Pierre Woods clearly recovering a fumble on special teams before that little midget (Bradshaw) jumped in there and ripped the ball away after the fact. That could've been game changing.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Gonna have to go with BB here, and that's without my biased goggles on.

AReid era Drafted QBs
Mahomes
Kevin Hogan
Aaron Murray
Matt Barkley
Nick Foles
Mike Kafka
Kevin Kolb
Andy Hall
AJ Feeley
McNabb

BB Drafted QBs
Zappe
Macaroni
Stiddy
Etling
Brissett
El Guapolo
Mallett
Zac Robinson
Kevin O'Connell
Cassel
Kliff Kingsbury
Don't Mess with the Rohan
JAGOAT

I think this is pretty close. Brady and Mahomes almost cancel each other out imo. The rest, where they were drafted. Their talent levels. I think it's pretty close tbh. AR isn't there yet but it got a lot closer recently.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Re the FG it would have been interesting to see if Bill would have made the same choice if AV was still here. I'd guess he would choose to kick.

The Butler decision was a crime against the team and us fans.

I believe he does, but Adam wasn't exactly lights out from that range as he's missed kicks during games before.

Going for it like they did showed the Giants D that they were clearly getting under the Pats skin.