Reid vs BB at developing QBs

[sb1]

Florio mentioned that BB is closing in on the NFL loss record for a coach and he could get the loss record before the win record.





Mac10 would be all over this if Brady was at or near the top of a longetivity record like this for QBs. Lol

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

I guess what I'm wondering is: do you think Bill's records without Brady should be better, given the circumstances he was in (be in Browns or Patriots?)

Great question.

The answer - if he is the supposed GOAT coach - is YES.

Because, again, we have seen other head coaches - some who aren't even that highly regarded - get so-so teams pretty far in the playoffs.

If Brian Daboll could get 9 wins with this Giants team and win a playoff game, if Dan Reeves could get the 1998 Falcons with Chris Chandler at QB to the super bowl, and Matt Nagy could get a 12 win season and 2 playoff appearances out of Trubisky (who stinks), etc. Then I'd expect Bill to do a little more than that, if he's the GOAT coach.

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

Florio mentioned that BB is closing in on the NFL loss record for a coach and he could get the loss record before the win record.





Mac10 would be all over this if Brady was at or near the top of a longetivity record like this for QBs. Lol

Yeah although this is the least of my critiques

 

[TheRainMaker]

If Brian Daboll could get 9 wins with this Giants team and win a playoff game, if Dan Reeves could get the 1998 Falcons with Chris Chandler at QB to the super bowl, and Matt Nagy could get a 12 win season and 2 playoff appearances out of Trubisky (who stinks), etc. Then I'd expect Bill to do a little more than that, if he's the GOAT coach.

Three great examples. That 1998 Falcons team had a lot going for them in order to make it the Super Bowl. 49ers had injuries as usual, 49ers eliminating the Packers, Garrison Heart has an injury in the Divisional Round and automatic Gary Anderson misses a routine kick that would've put the game out of reach.

The Bears on the other hand, if Nagy can pull something like that, Bill has to have one of those 12 win seasons sometime soon.

And Daboll winning a playoff game his first season with that at QB? Yeesh. Come on Bill!

 

[Vindicate]

Great question.

The answer - if he is the supposed GOAT coach - is YES.

Because, again, we have seen other head coaches - some who aren't even that highly regarded - get so-so teams pretty far in the playoffs.

If Brian Daboll could get 9 wins with this Giants team and win a playoff game, if Dan Reeves could get the 1998 Falcons with Chris Chandler at QB to the super bowl, and Matt Nagy could get a 12 win season and 2 playoff appearances out of Trubisky (who stinks), etc. Then I'd expect Bill to do a little more than that, if he's the GOAT coach.

Heard, I appreciate the explanation. The examples alongside help from a point of reference. Maybe it's the conflation of "greatest mind" with "greatest coach" that's worthwhile discussion. I do think BB has an ability to think of incredible schemes and when circumstances facilitate those schemes, the results show for themselves. But it is worthwhile separating that from being an all time greatest coach. Bill will always have your defense head and shoulders above the rest, he knows how to coach a defense. No doubt. But even his coaching tree has one huge knock: great minds, terrible coaching.

Now I'm not saying I don't see him as the greatest coach ever, that's my position. I do think homerism plays into that. But because you took the time to explain your side, it helps in entertaining and examining your point.

 

[Pats1971]

If Bill O'Brien arrived a season earlier, or Josh McD stayed a season longer... they very likely make the playoffs two years in a row. All the whining about 2022 and BB's inability to win without "he who shall not be named" would be gone.

Was it dumb to hire Patricia to run the offense... absolutely.

I don't know why they did, it may have been complete hubris on BB's part thinking they could do it by committee.

Kraft may have told BB to start considering his successor and Kraft may have wanted Obie in the building as heir apparent, Obie was committed to Alabama for one more season so Krafty told BB to make it work for a season.

We have no clue what led to the decision. If Obie takes over for BB in a year or two I'll assume the latter was the case, Obie was Kraft's chosen man. If that's the case Kraft will give BB plenty of time to get the all-time record. Obie is a Boston guy, has ties to the Krafts and knows it's a A+ organization... he might be willing to wait for the job.

You are what iffing. They didnt make the playoffs. Whatever OC was in there was not the only cause of playing bad. A good QB makes an OC look very good. McDaniels is awful without Brady. Bill O Brien failed without Brady. These two became what they are because the Qb that was there. That QB is gone, this idea that Bill O brien will turn Mac into this amazing superstar is a bit premature. Im not going to bash on Belichick he is a good coach, he has a great defensive mind. As a head coach I am not sure he would have went far unless Brady fell into his lap and turned out to be what he was. Whenever I hear, well the pats are not good because of the players, or the coaches. Bill calls those. Bill makes those decisions. If we have a coach that does bad, he was picked by Bill. If we have players that fail, they were picked by Bill. Sometimes taking a 7th round ranked player in the second round is not a good idea unless you have a worldly Qb covering it up and still winning. Those mistakes cannot be made anymore.

 

[crawhammer]

If Bill O'Brien arrived a season earlier, or Josh McD stayed a season longer... they very likely make the playoffs two years in a row. All the whining about 2022 and BB's inability to win without "he who shall not be named" would be gone.

So the OC is more important than the alleged GOAT HC?

And had they kept Brady around, they would have won the division in 20, 21 & 22. Brady owned everyone in the NFL for two decades but he DOMINATED the Bills to the tune of 33-3. Even with Josh Allen playing like Superman, Brady would have found a way to one-up them because he ALWAYS did.

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

Bill would have been axed anywhere else or if he had any other name. Just to recap, coming off of one of the worst losses (Buffalo) in team history, here's what happened (mostly all in the widely cited article):

• The team attempted to change the offensive philosophy and adapt a McVay-Shanahan concept based on an outside cut and run scheme. I've been saying for a few years I wish they'd bring in a coordinator who can utilize this concept since it's worked well with classic pocket, quick read passers like Ryan, Jimmy G, Goff and Stafford. So this is good right?

No, because a few things to note. First, BB was late to the table. As he'd been dragging his feet admiring McVay's ideas, defenses had been adapting. Hence in 2022, the actual architects like McVay, Shanahan, LaFleur(s) were reducing its role and avoiding it. BB apparently missed the league wide changes. Second, you need the right personnel to run this which requires fast, athletic linemen (especially tackles) and it really helps to have a RB with quickness for the cuts and game breaking speed to make defenses pay for not over playing the run.

Instead, BB goes out and brings in two retreads who not only haven't run an offense but have zero first hand exposure to the system. The aftermath is well chronicled. I think play calling and schemes are overrated but there are exceptions and when you look at the splits last year this is an exception and coaching actively hurt the offense.

It's Jets level incompetent (the Jets brought in Frank Stallone LaFleur but had a terribly mismatched QB.). Mark Cuban: first come the innovators, then the imitators, then the idiots.

I look at the decision making "process" and it reinforces my belief that since 2017 this org has become increasingly dysfunctional as a cult of personality. I could cite dozens of examples but I'll just look more like a hater. It's just that doing things the wrong way has become the norm. The team continues to bring in no oversight or new ideas from outside the org.

It's been a journey through the Upside Down since Brady left. All the things Bill was praised for have been comically put on their heads. Atrocious in critical games against playoff competition (always blown out), terrible in close, competitive games, an anti-analytic risk-reward approach on 4th down, beat up on bad teams and run up the score, apparent locker room division, and the icing on the cake: the team that boasts about situational, smart football, roster depth and special teams was the worst special teams unit in the NFL, culminating in an embarrassing season ending performance.

Now they're in the process of creating more liabilities: short term cap relief by sacrificing future cap integrity (Parker). This is just **** that bad franchises do.

I'll say it again: the things that make great leaders are the things that make terrible leaders. It's true of every CEO and president. Confidence and arrogance are the same thing. Rigidity and stubbornness. In the right circumstances they are smart. In the wrong circumstances they are moronic. Bill has run his course in NE and I think he would do great if served up a contending roster and change of scenery and hopefully he would integrate with a new staff and ideas rather than continuing to recycle these coaching failures simply because they think exactly like him and don't challenge him.

Incredible post.

 

[archstanton543]

Bill would have been axed anywhere else or if he had any other name. Just to recap, coming off of one of the worst losses (Buffalo) in team history, here's what happened (mostly all in the widely cited article):

• The team attempted to change the offensive philosophy and adapt a McVay-Shanahan concept based on an outside cut and run scheme. I've been saying for a few years I wish they'd bring in a coordinator who can utilize this concept since it's worked well with classic pocket, quick read passers like Ryan, Jimmy G, Goff and Stafford. So this is good right?

No, because a few things to note. First, BB was late to the table. As he'd been dragging his feet admiring McVay's ideas, defenses had been adapting. Hence in 2022, the actual architects like McVay, Shanahan, LaFleur(s) were reducing its role and avoiding it. BB apparently missed the league wide changes. Second, you need the right personnel to run this which requires fast, athletic linemen (especially tackles) and it really helps to have a RB with quickness for the cuts and game breaking speed to make defenses pay for not over playing the run.

Instead, BB goes out and brings in two retreads who not only haven't run an offense but have zero first hand exposure to the system. The aftermath is well chronicled. I think play calling and schemes are overrated but there are exceptions and when you look at the splits last year this is an exception and coaching actively hurt the offense.

It's Jets level incompetent (the Jets brought in Frank Stallone LaFleur but had a terribly mismatched QB.). Mark Cuban: first come the innovators, then the imitators, then the idiots.

I look at the decision making "process" and it reinforces my belief that since 2017 this org has become increasingly dysfunctional as a cult of personality. I could cite dozens of examples but I'll just look more like a hater. It's just that doing things the wrong way has become the norm. The team continues to bring in no oversight or new ideas from outside the org.

It's been a journey through the Upside Down since Brady left. All the things Bill was praised for have been comically put on their heads. Atrocious in critical games against playoff competition (always blown out), terrible in close, competitive games, an anti-analytic risk-reward approach on 4th down, beat up on bad teams and run up the score, apparent locker room division, and the icing on the cake: the team that boasts about situational, smart football, roster depth and special teams was the worst special teams unit in the NFL, culminating in an embarrassing season ending performance.

Now they're in the process of creating more liabilities: short term cap relief by sacrificing future cap integrity (Parker). This is just **** that bad franchises do.

I'll say it again: the things that make great leaders are the things that make terrible leaders. It's true of every CEO and president. Confidence and arrogance are the same thing. Rigidity and stubbornness. In the right circumstances they are smart. In the wrong circumstances they are moronic. Bill has run his course in NE and I think he would do great if served up a contending roster and change of scenery and hopefully he would integrate with a new staff and ideas rather than continuing to recycle these coaching failures simply because they think exactly like him and don't challenge him.

II was with you until the Upside Down part. Yes, they have underperformed against tough competition but they've been hardly getting beat up by bad teams. Reading that paragraph, you'd think their record has been 4-13 the last couple of years. They are what their record says they are. A middle of the pack team. Not bad...but not good either.

I'm not a BB "hater" but time catches up to everyone. I'm not saying move on from him after this year win, lose or draw but, if I'm the Krafts, I'd be looking for a respectful exit for Bill in the next few years. Either way, it's going to be tough for a guy like BB who's eaten, drank and slept football his entire life.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

A coaches job is to maximize the available talent. BB's record without Brady impossible to recreate and ignores the state of the teams he was leading in seasons where the team did not have a good record. Accounting for the two years where he took over bad teams (NE and Cleveland), the season that was torpedoed by the Browns move to Baltimore and the cap reset Cam year last year stands out as the only season where coaching had a negative impact on the team. BB was not the best coach in the league last year. With Mac in year three and a solid staff this year will tell if BB has lost his fast ball.

 

[Wozzy]

You are what iffing. They didnt make the playoffs. Whatever OC was in there was not the only cause of playing bad. A good QB makes an OC look very good. McDaniels is awful without Brady. Bill O Brien failed without Brady. These two became what they are because the Qb that was there. That QB is gone, this idea that Bill O brien will turn Mac into this amazing superstar is a bit premature. Im not going to bash on Belichick he is a good coach, he has a great defensive mind. As a head coach I am not sure he would have went far unless Brady fell into his lap and turned out to be what he was. Whenever I hear, well the pats are not good because of the players, or the coaches. Bill calls those. Bill makes those decisions. If we have a coach that does bad, he was picked by Bill. If we have players that fail, they were picked by Bill. Sometimes taking a 7th round ranked player in the second round is not a good idea unless you have a worldly Qb covering it up and still winning. Those mistakes cannot be made anymore.

We just watched the Jags and Giants turn their entire franchises around with new coaches.

We just watched BB hire a know nothing to run the offense and Brady get his head coach fired... both teams won 8 games.

Sure... coaching doesn't matter.

 

[Wozzy]

So the OC is more important than the alleged GOAT HC?

And had they kept Brady around, they would have won the division in 20, 21 & 22. Brady owned everyone in the NFL for two decades but he DOMINATED the Bills to the tune of 33-3. Even with Josh Allen playing like Superman, Brady would have found a way to one-up them because he ALWAYS did.

Shut up about Brady... nobody wants to get into another Brady discussion with you. He was a free agent, he chose to leave and he was smart to leave, the Patriots had to rebuild and they wouldn't have won anything beyond some regular season games even if Tom stayed... they were in cap debt.

Tom won 8 games last year, he won 9 games in 2002, he wasn't a magician who could turn bad teams good, he was a great QB who played on good to great teams for two decades. Stop sniffing glue.

 

[crawhammer]

We just watched the Jags and Giants turn their entire franchises around with new coaches.

Lawrence is an elite mainstay, he showed it last season, I'll cut him some slack for struggling as a rookie. But, he would be at least a very good quarterback on any team in the NFL. He's that good. And now he has Pederson, an exceptionally talented offensive coordinator, so we're going to see the best version of TL.

Daniel Jones is better than this forum gives him credit for. He had some big games as a rookie. However, he's not Lawrence, he's not elite, so a bad set of circumstances around him will derail him completely as we saw with Joe Judge. Daboll looks like a legit head coach and he was able to maximize DJ's skill set. I like DJ, he's a good quarterback, and he'll a nice run with Daboll.

MJ doesn't have the capacity for TL's level of play and he doesn't offer the running ability of DJ. And I'm not sure he's even a better passer than DJ. So as we roll into 2023 MJ ranks below DJ and well below TL. MJ has a lot to prove this season.

 

[Wozzy]

Lawrence is an elite mainstay, he showed it last season, I'll cut him some slack for struggling as a rookie. But, he would be at least a very good quarterback on any team in the NFL. He's that good. And now he has Pederson, an exceptionally talented offensive coordinator, so we're going to see the best version of TL.

Daniel Jones is better than this forum gives him credit for. He had some big games as a rookie. However, he's not Lawrence, he's not elite, so a bad set of circumstances around him will derail him completely as we saw with Joe Judge. Daboll looks like a legit head coach and he was able to maximize DJ's skill set. I like DJ, he's a good quarterback, and he'll a nice run with Daboll.

MJ doesn't have the capacity for TL's level of play and he doesn't offer the running ability of DJ. And I'm not sure he's even a better passer than DJ. So as we roll into 2023 MJ ranks below DJ and well below TL. MJ has a lot to prove this season.

Yeah… Urban Meyer was really a good coach and Trevor Lawrence was just a rookie… that’s it. It wasn’t that Mac joined a good, well coached and schemed team as a rookie.

Inside Urban Meyer's disastrous tenure as Jacksonville Jaguars coach

Meyer's visceral distaste for losing and difficulty transitioning to leadership of professional athletes marked a painful chapter for the long-struggling franchise.

www.espn.com

The 10 Moments That Define Urban Meyer’s Disastrous Jaguars Tenure

The Jaguars fired Meyer on Thursday, ending one of the worst coaching stints in NFL history. To understand how we got here, let’s go through his low points in Jacksonville—from the bad to the baffling to the truly appalling.

www.theringer.com

The way you murder the truth to troll this board is equal parts pathetic (if you’re genuinely a Pat’s fan) and absurd.

You believe QB’s are the reason for everything, it’s childish hero worship nonsense.

Daniel Jones was better with Daboll putting a better team and scheme around him… otherwise he’s average at best.

Learn the game.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

II was with you until the Upside Down part. Yes, they have underperformed against tough competition but they've been hardly getting beat up by bad teams. Reading that paragraph, you'd think their record has been 4-13 the last couple of years. They are what their record says they are. A middle of the pack team. Not bad...but not good either.

I'm not a BB "hater" but time catches up to everyone. I'm not saying move on from him after this year win, lose or draw but, if I'm the Krafts, I'd be looking for a respectful exit for Bill in the next few years. Either way, it's going to be tough for a guy like BB who's eaten, drank and slept football his entire life.

I wrote that they beat up on bad teams.

 

[crawhammer]

Shut up about Brady... nobody wants to get into another Brady discussion with you. He was a free agent, he chose to leave and he was smart to leave, the Patriots had to rebuild and they wouldn't have won anything beyond some regular season games even if Tom stayed... they were in cap debt.

Tom won 8 games last year, he won 9 games in 2002, he wasn't a magician who could turn bad teams good, he was a great QB who played on good to great teams for two decades. Stop sniffing glue.

LOL! Just seeing this. No, not gonna "shut up" about Brady. It's not my fault Belichick can't win without Brady... it is what it is. It's up to BB to change the narrative. And yes, when a quarterback wins 16 division titles in a row, it's pretty likely he would have continued the streak. He won 2 more division titles with his new team, and the one season he didn't win the division, he won the Super Bowl instead.

So yeah, Brady's a magician, a unicorn, the GOAT. There have been a lot of quarterbacks who were "great quarterbacks and played on good to great teams." No one else has more than 4 rings to show for it. Brady has 7 rings and 14 postseason game-winning drives behind it. The next guy has 6 GWDs. It's the extraordinary clutch play that separated Brady from everyone else.

 

[crawhammer]

Yeah… Urban Meyer was really a good coach and Trevor Lawrence was just a rookie… that’s it. It wasn’t that Mac joined a good, well coached and schemed team as a rookie.

Urban Meyer sucked. Lawrence also was terrible his rookie season which certainly had something to do with him being a rookie.

So, if Mac joined a good team with good coaching then what the hell happened with the 1-4 finish to the 2021 season? Moreover explain to me why the team is 8-15 in December and January over the last four seasons?

The way you murder the truth to troll this board is equal parts pathetic (if you’re genuinely a Pat’s fan) and absurd.

You believe QB’s are the reason for everything, it’s childish hero worship nonsense.

Daniel Jones was better with Daboll putting a better team and scheme around him… otherwise he’s average at best.

Learn the game.

What am I learning? You just said basically the same thing as me about Daniel Jones. Decent quarterback who was bad with a putrid head coach and then better with very good head coach.

The thing you're sidestepping is DJ's rushing contribution. He had 57 rushing first downs... his previous high was 21. He had 7 rushing TDs... he had 5 total in his first three seasons. He more than doubled his rushing yards per season. Credit to Daboll for recognizing his quarterback's skill set but the player deserves a lot of credit too. He's a good quarterback.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

The Giants were 9-7-1 with a -6 point differential. Every year, based on probability alone there are a few teams who get lucky in close games/schedule and the coaching gets over hyped (often a COTY award) only to regress quickly. This is the nightmare scenario for having a QB like Daniel Jones as he'll likely get a huge extension and cripple the team for 3-4 years. Everyone will point to the 2022 season and fail to acknowledge this type of luck isn't sustainable.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

The Giants were 9-7-1 with a -6 point differential. Every year, based on probability alone there are a few teams who get lucky in close games/schedule and the coaching gets over hyped (often a COTY award) only to regress quickly. This is the nightmare scenario for having a QB like Daniel Jones as he'll likely get a huge extension and cripple the team for 3-4 years. Everyone will point to the 2022 season and fail to acknowledge this type of luck isn't sustainable.

People commonly say "So and so coach turned the franchise around based on one year's performance ". Then of course Y2 and Y3 are not better than Y1.

 

[Ring 6]

When you have the greatest quarterback and player in the history of the NFL, you do NOT get to say you had teams "with far less talent" than anyone. It can never be said. Not once. There is NO example of Belichick ever winning a Super Bowl with far less talent than his opponent(s).

Brady is the all time eraser of team deficiencies and game deficits. No player in the history of the game has had Brady's uncanny ability to adapt and adjust to whatever supporting cast he's had, which from start to finish in New England changed 100%, along with a revolving door in between.

Has anyone looked at the list of receivers Brady completed passes to throughout his time in New England? It's incredibly long and largely unremarkable. There are no mainstays on it like HOFers Harrison and Wayne either. Moss for two seasons (one incredible season). Unheralded slot receivers that became near HOFers with Brady.

Lots of trash on the list too... see 2006, 2013, see literally every single WR taken in the top half of the draft. 18 drafts and the best Belichick could ever do was Deion Branch who never surpassed 1000 yards or 80 receptions or made a pro bowl or ever accomplished anything away from Brady.

So in fact, Brady won with less talent. Not Belichick. He had Brady, the greatest player in the history of the league, which is a HUGE advantage over every other HC and GM in the league.

If you want to claim Belichick can win with less talent then he'll have to prove it first. He can start with 2023... I have his team as the 3rd most talented in his own division. We know he hasn't proven it in 10 other opportunities... 0-10 which is pretty decidedly not winning at all ( with less or more or whatever).

Your entire post is refuted by 2001 alone.