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Ring 6

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nothing? i would say winning a playoff game, winning an mvp isnt "nothing"
What good is winning an mvp when you choke it away in the playoffs.
Every QB on that list would have won at least 1 playoff game with the team he had around him. 13 ppg
Baker Mayfield win a playoff game too.
 

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In the Starting Line-Up
What good is winning an mvp when you choke it away in the playoffs.
Every QB on that list would have won at least 1 playoff game with the team he had around him. 13 ppg
Baker Mayfield win a playoff game too.
Only a select few win super bowls... dont hold him to a standard you are unwilling to hold the others to in assessing their game play...

The point is he has won a playoff game... and hes getting better... the guys on that list? most of them 1 havent and 2 arent
 

Ring 6

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Only a select few win super bowls... dont hold him to a standard you are unwilling to hold the others to in assessing their game play...

The point is he has won a playoff game... and hes getting better... the guys on that list? most of them 1 havent and 2 arent
He is 1-3 in the post season and has played horribly.
I don’t see him getting better at all. His TD passes have dropped consistently and his Ints have increased. His w/l record is also going in the wrong direction.
What do you think shows her is getting better?
He succeeded in a unique, novel offensive system 3 years ago, and as the league has adapted to it, he has declined.
 

Deus Irae

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No I'm speaking overall, mainly since Jackson and Allen have entered the league. All three are comparable looking at the collective imo. Both were better than Jackson this year and Allen last year as well. Jackson wasn't bad last year though. View attachment 39671
View attachment 39672

Ok, but why are you going back 4 years in order to figure out today? Allen was hot garbage in his rookie season, and didn't make his big jump until last year, so his numbers are wildly skewed downward if you go back 4 years.

1641691997676.png

Jackson, on the other hand, has been in statistical (and I would argue actual) decline since his 2019 MVP season. Part of that we can put down as post-MVP reversion to the mean, but that doesn't explain it all.

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And Dak's been at a bit of a plateau, which may be his ceiling, but it's certainly better than Jackson's last years.

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Here's Jackson's last 2 seasons:

1641692349601.png
 

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Pape

In the Starting Line-Up
He is 1-3 in the post season and has played horribly.
I don’t see him getting better at all. His TD passes have dropped consistently and his Ints have increased. His w/l record is also going in the wrong direction.
What do you think shows her is getting better?
He succeeded in a unique, novel offensive system 3 years ago, and as the league has adapted to it, he has declined.
keeps building on his abilities
year one he was a novelty
year two he lit it up
year three teams adjusted, and he still won, notching his first playoff victory

thats growth.

Unless injuries derail him, like they have this season, he's going to continue to improve, and be a real load in the pants to deal with in the future.

So you think teams have figured it out & he has declined? First, it doesnt matter if the offense is unique and novel, suited only to his particular gameplay... If it works, it works... IF (big IF because he did indeed get hurt) he didnt get injured, he was on pace for 1000+ yards rushing, 4000+ yards passing... 5000+ yards of offense, all flowing thru him - with the ravens lacking offensive weapons so much so that even Brady in his heyday would have walked away at the beginning of the season saying No Mas...





what was that about
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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Ok, but why are you going back 4 years
I did say I was looking at the collective. Also there's very few QB's that will sustain a near 4 to 1 TD to INT ratio so regression is obvious. The following year he went 26/9 65% and went to playoffs.

I'm also not ignoring context. Overall he's very much on par with those two throwing to a bottom 10 group of targets.
 

PATSYLICIOUS

Pro Bowl Player
If I were their teams I would approach Lamar and Baker Mayfield's situations similarly. They both were banged up this year and had down years. But heading into the year they were potentially solid franchise qb's especially Lamar. Let them heal up play the 5th year and see where they're at. On Lamar's end it could also have been the league catching up to him, because if I'm remembering correctly he had many of his struggles even while full strength. But on both ends it's totally worth it to ride it out and see if the QB from their better seasons is what you may end up getting moving forth. Especially on Cleveland's end who hasn't had a franchise QB since.... the 80s?
 

Pape

In the Starting Line-Up
No I'm speaking overall, mainly since Jackson and Allen have entered the league. All three are comparable looking at the collective imo. Both were better than Jackson this year and Allen last year as well. Jackson wasn't bad last year though. View attachment 39671
View attachment 39672
the problem with this anlysis, and why deus is wrong, is because he is an unorthodox quarterback, in that a lot of his threat and a good chunk of production is in his ground game, which passing numbers do not show. Add to that the addition of Diggs, and then touch on the point that Jackson has no weapons, especially one like that,

Its a flawed analysis, and by design, is specious and misleading.
 

Deus Irae

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I did say I was looking at the collective. Also there's very few QB's that will sustain a near 4 to 1 TD to INT ratio so regression is obvious. The following year he went 26/9 65% and went to playoffs.

???

What Jackson did 4 years ago is far too long in the past to be mattering with regards to what he is today. Peyton Manning was shot in 2015, and the fact that he managed to win the SB on the back of his defense doesn't change that. Nor does the fact that he spent years being among the very bst to ever do the job somehow mean that he was good in that last season.

I'm also not ignoring context. Overall he's very much on par with those two throwing to a bottom 10 group of targets.

He's not even in their class right now, much less being on par with them. And that's with Allen having spent most of this season playing worse than he did last season.
 

Ring 6

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keeps building on his abilities
year one he was a novelty
year two he lit it up
year three teams adjusted, and he still won, notching his first playoff victory

thats growth.

Unless injuries derail him, like they have this season, he's going to continue to improve, and be a real load in the pants to deal with in the future.

So you think teams have figured it out & he has declined? First, it doesnt matter if the offense is unique and novel, suited only to his particular gameplay... If it works, it works... IF (big IF because he did indeed get hurt) he didnt get injured, he was on pace for 1000+ yards rushing, 4000+ yards passing... 5000+ yards of offense, all flowing thru him - with the ravens lacking offensive weapons so much so that even Brady in his heyday would have walked away at the beginning of the season saying No Mas...





what was that about
TDs 36,26,16
Int. 6,9,13
Qb rating 113,99,87
How is that improving.

Oh Jesus now you are going to blame the teammates.
 

Joker

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There was this unbelievable "Lamar is the greatest QB in NFL history!!!" hysteria that developed in his first season. Now the legion of disappointed butthurt Jackson fans are going to ridiculous lengths to keep their little heroboy binkie propped up in people's minds. I have NEVER been on the Jackson bandwagon primarily because he is STUPID and I prefer intelligent QB's. He has shown ZERO progress in 4 years when it comes to reading and going through his progressions. He's all physical ability and zero mental acuity.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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???

What Jackson did 4 years ago is far too long in the past to be mattering with regards to what he is today. Peyton Manning was shot in 2015, and the fact that he managed to win the SB on the back of his defense doesn't change that. Nor does the fact that he spent years being among the very bst to ever do the job somehow mean that he was good in that last season.



He's not even in their class right now, much less being on par with them. And that's with Allen having spent most of this season playing worse than he did last season.
We disagree. Jackson was good last year, just regressed off an MVP season. Allen has been trending up but that doesn't mean Jackson can't be as good or better, again. Especially if his team doesn't completely **** the bed or half the team is on IR before Thanksgiving.
There was this unbelievable "Lamar is the greatest QB in NFL history!!!" hysteria that developed in his first season. Now the legion of disappointed butthurt Jackson fans are going to ridiculous lengths to keep their little heroboy binkie propped up in people's minds. I have NEVER been on the Jackson bandwagon primarily because he is STUPID and I prefer intelligent QB's. He has shown ZERO progress in 4 years when it comes to reading and going through his progressions. He's all physical ability and zero mental acuity.
I know I'm taking the bait here but he wouldn't have made it this far if he's as dumb as you think he is.
 

Joker

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We disagree. Jackson was good last year, just regressed off an MVP season. Allen has been trending up but that doesn't mean Jackson can't be as good or better, again. Especially if his team doesn't completely **** the bed or half the team is on IR before Thanksgiving.

I know I'm taking the bait here but he wouldn't have made it this far if he's as dumb as you think he is.
sure he could and has...there's been plenty of athletic QB's short on brains in this league ...going back decades. Lamar has had FOUR YEARS to learn to read defenses from the pocket. I see the same player he was in his 1st game in the NFL...a glorified RB with an arm. There's plenty of teams in the NFL that are willing to sacrifice smarts for raw ability. It can work in the regular season. Winning championships? I thought that was the point and I see nothing in Jackson's future that leads me to believe he will ever climb THAT hill.

As I said 4 years ago...we shall see.
 

BennyBledsoe

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
As soon as teams are no longer fearful of his ability to run and those passing windows get tighter....that'll be it for Jackson.

QBs like that can be great, amazing even....but their shelf life is limited. They're a RB that can pass. And RBs break down much sooner than pocket passing QBs.
 

everlong

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
Is he really, though? That sets up an interesting question.


Brady
Mahomes
Rodgers
Burrow
Watson
Allen
Herbert
Carr
Prescott
Cousins
Ryan
Murray
Wilson
Stafford


Leaving Jackson out of it, and leaving out all the rookies in order to minimize the projection arguments, the above are the best in the NFL right now, in no particular order. How many of that 14 are worse than Jackson, as a QB?

I think he's in the conversation but if you feel he's not it pushes the trade him now conversation into definitely. As this point in time on total skill set I would take him over Cousins, and Ryan.
 

everlong

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
I don't hate any team but the Colts they're #1 for me. I'd hate to see him behind that OL with Taylor in a dome half the year.

Saints are an interesting one too. Same deal + Kamara & Thomas.

Baltimore was set up big time this year but it fell apart early. Dobbins is the perfect complement RB to Jackson but that ACL killed to their offense.

Cleveland is in a pickle for sure. Hungry fan base that had a little success after decades of putrid play. They have a big decision to make. I was a big Baker fan coming out. I loved him but he's Jared Goff and just hasn't improved. Very up & down.

You're wrong here man. Balt isn't even top 5 in "pulls" or "keeps"on RPO's. To get most of your comp from RPO would mean you'd be running that a crazy amount of the time. Just doesn't make sense with respect. Also he has 80+ passing TD's - a ton came from inside the pocket. Sorry but you're off here.

I mean he's been very durable until a few games ago and his injury had nothing to do with him running the ball as a "runner" Almost every one misses time at some point in the league. Until it's a real problem it's not a top concern for me. Plus I don't think most realize how banged up and depleted that team is rn. I wouldn't risk it personally. They're a mash unit.

He's always been pocket passer that can run. College + Pros (basically 6.5 years) he's passed for 150+ TD's. It's more than clear he's a pocket passer. The narrative that he takes off immediately or runs after his first read or w/e is so false and wrong it's not funny.

I love Andrews but he's repeatedly come up short in big moments in the playoffs. People love to point to Jackson in the playoffs and sure, he's the QB. He needs to play better but his team and coaches have **** the bed the last few years.

Not the best TE in the league but top 5-6 for sure. Maybe top 3-4 specifically talking about passing. I've always been a fan but he definitely needs to play better in big games imo.

You have to draft well first off. Bateman is a good start imo. He was hurt early on which is a killer for most rookie WR's. Go after a Burks or Wilson if available this draft.

Other teams figure it out. The cap is real but certainly not a stop sign. I just look at what Diggs & co have done for Allen. What Hop has done for Arizona and Murray. They have to figure it out in that respect. Again other teams navigate the cap while paying QB's.

When you get to the playoffs teams know Andrews is the guy they have to take away. So he get double or triple teamed. Unlike Kelce or Gronk who have complimentary pieces, and this speaks to your point about better weapons. Brown is a guy who needs to step up.

Jackson has 10 playoff turnovers in 5 games. He's also listed as 19 sacks for 119 negative yards. I'm not sure how many of those are actually rushing attempts counted as sacks. Some of that might be the OL as well but a lot of it is his running around like crazy trying to make a play at all costs rather than taking the net zero and living to fight another down.

He's also gotten himself banged up in the playoffs several times.

I haven't looked at his RPO and rushing stats for this year but 113 carries for 767 yards before he got hurt. I'm sorry that's not sustainable. By the time the end of the season comes he's beat up and I believe it's aided his post season failures. I disagree with teams using their QBs as RBs week after week. It should be in big spots only or when the coverage and pass rush allow for it to be a postive play with little to no chance of getting hit. Mahomes is getting used more and more like this. He was masterful yesterday just getting a first down and then out of bounds. (Have not seen the second half of that game as we had plans.)

Respect your opinions. For me this is a philosophical debate. We may need to just agree to disagree but it's interesting nonetheless.
 

Triumph

Hall of Fame Poster
You are watching the demise of Lamar Jackson.

This is the way it begins with QBs like him. It happened to RG3 and Vick and others like Dante Culpepper, Vince Young, Kizer, etc. Its been coming and Jackson has cheated the odds better than anyone that I can recall. This NFL RB/QB thing just might work and the traditional pocket passer QB is slowly fading. NOPE. Jackson was knocked out for a few games, but he will return to form until the next injury. His game will not change because its in his DNA. The wear and tear of an NFL pounding is starting to show signs.

Jackson has been the Ravens leading rusher for the last 3 seasons out of his 4 year career. Despite only starting 7 games in his rookie season, Jackson missed lead rusher by only 24 yards.

You have an OL adept at pass blocking for a reason. You pay LTs a fortune to protect the QBs blindside and not run block for him.
 

1960Pats

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Baltimore would love to have those PAT's right about now...they would probably be 1-1 in those OT games and in the playoffs...SMH!

Ditto with McDermott....had he kicked a FG vs. the Titans...maybe the Bills have a BYE.

Wild season....
The stupidity is becoming more common and coaches are losing games rather than winning them.

The Ratbirds' losses are the best. From what I heard Harbawl went to his players and asked them if they wanted to go for two. Way to be a leader coach. At least now he has someone he can blame.
 

1960Pats

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I like mobile quarterbacks but throwing comes first. My problem with mobile quarterbacks are usually their frail build. Wilson is good at avoiding hits but he is also very thick. His body type is compact like Wes Welker's. Josh is thick enough to be a mobile qb imo but they overuse it.

I see Jackson being no different from RG3. The Ravens may feel pressured to pay him, but I don't think I could do it if I was the GM. Small qbs like Jackson, Mayfield, Jimmy G, and Kyler Murray are all risky investments.

Cam isn't accurate enough to be the ideal dual threat but the day is coming when we have a monster that is just a ridiculous task to tackle but can also throw like Rodgers. Just imagine if prime Gronk or Jonnu Smith could effectively play qb.
I think one of the monsters you're describing has been Rapistberger. He wasn't so much a running QB as a pocket passer who wouldn't go down very easily and got the benefit of the non-calls for being in the grasp of a defender.

I think it's pretty bad timing for anyone to be talking up the RQB's. It's been a horrible year for them.
 

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