Ras-I Dowling and Taylor Price at practice today

[D-Money]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

Its not about being a GM, i am just tired of seeing this secondary give up big plays and not stop 3rd downs!!

 

[Tom_Montana12]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

I think you're right that Dowling won't be asked to defend against slot receivers, even if he does stay at CB. Bodden has been playing that role though, so it's possible that in 3WR sets Dowling could be line up outside as a CB. And if it's not him, it will likely be Arrington, with Bodden still being on the inside. Either way, I wouldn't get too hung up on who is getting paid how much and the idea that a nickel corner is worth less than an outside corner. Against a lot of offenses, your #3 CB is on the field as much as most of your other starters- I remember AJ Smith explaining that in their eyes the #3 CB was a starter, and that was why they drafted Cason in the first round when they already had Cromartie and Jammer.

It's also possible that he could be predominantly a safety who occasionally lines up as a CB, which is something that Meriweather has done before I believe.

Just seems unBelichick-like to pay a #3 corner as much as Bodden, but maybe it's the way the league is evolving, I don't know.

But assume Dowling is a non factor this year... Why would Bodden kick to nickel and Arrington play outside? It would seem more fitting to keep Bodden outside and stick the smaller Arrington at nickel, no?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

Just seems unBelichick-like to pay a #3 corner as much as Bodden, but maybe it's the way the league is evolving, I don't know.

But assume Dowling is a non factor this year... Why would Bodden kick to nickel and Arrington play outside? It would seem more fitting to keep Bodden outside and stick the smaller Arrington at nickel, no?

Arrington isn't especially quick, so I'm not sure that he's an ideal nickel CB. I'm no expert on this, by any means, but I guess I'm mostly saying that I wouldn't assume that the inside CB is the #3 CB. The one who's lining up inside is the one who is best-equipped to handle the slot receiver, and there's no inherent reason why he couldn't be your best CB. After all, Revis defends Welker when the Jets play us, and that definitely doesn't make him their #3 CB.

 

[bagwell368]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

While this is entirely possible, i think he'll play wherever he is best suited. I don't think Dowling is quick enough to be that nickel corner, correct me if I'm wrong. Doesn't seem fluid enough in the hips. McCourty will obviously be at the top of the depth chart, and I don't see us paying Bodden to ONLY be a nickel corner and put Dowling opposite McCourty. I don't know though.

What I'm trying to say is would it make sense to have McCourty and Bodden on the field in the base defense, and then slide Bodden over to nickel and insert Dowling across from McCourty? I don't think we'd pay Bodden to be strictly a nickel back, hence Dowling having more value at safety, IF he's a good player there of course.

You might be right. If it were me, and Dowling was to be a CB, I'd line him up wherever the biggest WR is lined up and play him in a man or a zone depending on what the call was.

If Dowling is going to be a S sooner rather then later, then that means Merri is probably gone via trade, and Wilhite is our 4th (erghhhh...).

 

[Tom_Montana12]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

Arrington isn't especially quick, so I'm not sure that he's an ideal nickel CB. I'm no expert on this, by any means, but I guess I'm mostly saying that I wouldn't assume that the inside CB is the #3 CB. The one who's lining up inside is the one who is best-equipped to handle the slot receiver, and there's no inherent reason why he couldn't be your best CB. After all, Revis defends Welker when the Jets play us, and that definitely doesn't make him their #3 CB.

I'm not sure this is correct, though, if that means you are downgrading the other outside cornerback position. What I mean is Bodden is probably better than Arrington on the outside and at the nickel back, so wouldn't you want him outside?

 

[Tom_Montana12]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

You might be right. If it were me, and Dowling was to be a CB, I'd line him up wherever the biggest WR is lined up and play him in a man or a zone depending on what the call was.

If Dowling is going to be a S sooner rather then later, then that means Merri is probably gone via trade, and Wilhite is our 4th (erghhhh...).

Well I was thinking more along the lines of a redshirt type year for Dowling and let Meriweather walk after this year, but i guess that's a huge risk if you aren't positive with what you'll be getting out of Dowling at FS.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

Just seems unBelichick-like to pay a #3 corner as much as Bodden, but maybe it's the way the league is evolving, I don't know.

But assume Dowling is a non factor this year... Why would Bodden kick to nickel and Arrington play outside? It would seem more fitting to keep Bodden outside and stick the smaller Arrington at nickel, no?

You're assuming that Bodden moving inside would be because of some deficiency of Bodden. It's more likely that it would be due to the limitations of Arrington/Butle/Dowling.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

I'm not sure this is correct, though, if that means you are downgrading the other outside cornerback position. What I mean is Bodden is probably better than Arrington on the outside and at the nickel back, so wouldn't you want him outside?

Why would outside be more important?
We are talking about playing Bodden outside in the base and when we go to nickle playing him inside. Why would it make him less valuable? Slot guys are targetted the most on 3rd down.

 

[Tom_Montana12]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

You're assuming that Bodden moving inside would be because of some deficiency of Bodden. It's more likely that it would be due to the limitations of Arrington/Butle/Dowling.

Yeah don't know what I was thinking, I think I meant if Dowling was part of our base defense opposite McCourty.

 

[Tom_Montana12]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

Why would outside be more important?
We are talking about playing Bodden outside in the base and when we go to nickle playing him inside. Why would it make him less valuable? Slot guys are targetted the most on 3rd down.

Because I did not know this.

 

[bagwell368]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

That's long been the perception, but I don't think it's the reality any more. If you look at the past couple of pro bowl rosters, 9 of the 11 safeties selected were drafted in the first 2 rounds, compared to 7 of the 11 corners.

Well.. perhaps, but that's not what I said.

Or to put it another way, I'd say that the most valuable DB of the past decade has been Ed Reed, not any CB. If Dowling could improve the team most by playing safety, I wouldn't hesitate.

Elite CB's don't last as long as elite S's, or they become S's themselves, so using a long term S may not be fair, but in this case, I have the answer:

Champ Bailey's top 8 contiguous years top Reed's best 8 - and yes, both are the best current players at those positions.​

Draft 1st round counts for CB and S:

Year CB S

2004 4 - 1
2005 5 - 0
2006 4 - 3
2007 3 - 4
2008 5 - 1
2009 2 - 0
2010 5 - 2

28 CB's to 11 S's in the 1st round of the last 7 drafts.

It's a bit like baseball - SS become 3B as they age, CF's move to LF with age. S is IMO physically easier to play then CB, thus there is a smaller pool of elite or even elite-> servicable CB's vs. S's.

 

[EJ Blitz]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

Good to hear about Dowling. Now, what the hell is wrong with Spikes? Did he pull his groin on his girlfriend?

 

[Froob]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

It's applied physics. The rec knows where he is going, the DB does not, so the DB has to be able to change directions very quickly, someone who is taller and/or heavier simply cannot react as quickly.

That makes sense thanks.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

WHY in the world would anyone compare RAS-I to Cromartie?

RAS-I is an amazing tackler and run stopper at the CB spot. One of the best Ive seen in College.

Cromartie is terrible at run support and wrap up tackling.

that and their intelligence are the only things that set them apart.

I dont care. Perhaps YOU should watch more tape.

Dowling is a solid run defender who is not afraid to stick his nose in a scrum.

Cromartie is a terrible run defender who shys away from contact.

Enough said!

I guess you missed the part where I said their tackling and physicality are different. In terms of what they do as coverage corners, I don't see how you can say they are totally different. The size, length, speed, hips, and ball skills are almost mirror images of each other.

 

[italia44]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

Its not about being a GM, i am just tired of seeing this secondary give up big plays and not stop 3rd downs!!

You're tired because it's not the secondary that doesn't make stops on 3rd down.....it's the whole defense.The pass rush must be better, the run defense better and the linebacker coverage better.

Blaming 3rd down deficiences on the DB's is knee-jerk. All parts of the defense need to work for success. Lastly,did we not lead the league with a near-record,turnover ratio?.....How soon they forget:bricks:

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

I'm not sure this is correct, though, if that means you are downgrading the other outside cornerback position. What I mean is Bodden is probably better than Arrington on the outside and at the nickel back, so wouldn't you want him outside?

On third down, shutting down the slot receiver will typically be one of the defense's top priorities. I would think that on the basis of that alone we would be willing to take some downgrade on the outside if it meant making the 3rd down conversion more difficult.

On the whole, though, philosophically I'd think that you would want the best group of players out there for stopping the formation and personnel in front of you. If McCourty/Arrington outside with Bodden inside is more effective than McCourty/Bodden outside and one of Arrington/Butler inside, then we'll likely see the Pats go with the former arrangement. As Deus pointed out, that speaks more to Arrington and Butler than it does to Bodden. Personally, I would love to see Butler carve out a specialized role as the slot CB in this defense--that's where he seemed to get his snaps last year--but if he doesn't progress as a player, then shifting Bodden inside and having the same guys outside that we had last season isn't a bad alternative.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

Excellent FOOTBALL discussion of slot rcvrs & 3rd down strategies. As we all know there are not many elite QBs, most NFL QBs Sanchez among them, are best at the short slant throws, likely to be seen on 3rd down.

 

[patchick]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

Well.. perhaps, but that's not what I said.

Huh. You said "A lot of great S's are chosen in rounds 3 and beyond, few CB's that matter are seen that low." So I showed that a higher percentage of pro bowl CBs are chosen in rounds 3 and beyond than pro bowl safeties. Seemed pretty on-point to me. :confused2:

Draft 1st round counts for CB and S:

Year CB S

2004 4 - 1
2005 5 - 0
2006 4 - 3
2007 3 - 4
2008 5 - 1
2009 2 - 0
2010 5 - 2

28 CB's to 11 S's in the 1st round of the last 7 drafts.

It's a bit like baseball - SS become 3B as they age, CF's move to LF with age. S is IMO physically easier to play then CB, thus there is a smaller pool of elite or even elite-> servicable CB's vs. S's.

Absolutely, more CBs are drafted high. That doesn't necessarily mean that CBs are more valuable than safeties -- especially to this team.

First off, as you yourself pointed out, safeties tend to have longer careers. That means you need to keep drafting cb's. Second, with nickels on the field so much in the modern NFL, every team now looks for 3 starting cb's, which means you need to keep targeting cb's high. And finally, there's the perception vs. reality issue. For instance, the perception that safety is just the next step for db's no longer fast enough for cb. (How many of the impact safeties of the past dozen years started off as NFL corners?)

But my core disagreement is with the idea that THIS team would consider a potential impact player "too valuable" to play at safety. IMO an elite safety would make the biggest impact on this Patriots defense of any player, and this organization is all about improving the team.

Does that mean Dowling in particular will play safety from day 1? Nope. BB & co. may see him as a pure corner, or may feel more comfortable with their starting safeties than their 3rd cb, or may feel that it's too much to ask of him given his lack of camp reps. But I, from my fan's perspective, would love to see Dowling take over for Meriweather next year.

 

[Sicilian]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

Lost in this talk of Dowling and slot coverage is the news that Price is back. To me, seeing what he can do with Brady as opposed to Hoyer or Mallett is just as exciting. Because as good as he was in that first preseason game, if he doesn't have Tom's confidence he might as well be Bam Childress. I'm hoping he gets some snaps with the 1's on Saturday to see what he's got.

 

[captain stone]

Re: Ras-I and Price at practice today

One of my favorite draft moments. Kiper just threw his hands up in the air and said "... what can I say? It's Bill Belichick."

FWIW, Chris Mortensen reported a few moments later that a GM w/ an early 2nd-rounder
told him that Bill just took his OLman. Perhaps it was SF, who took David Baas at 33.