QB vs HC

[1960Pats]

Now that the Pats let Brady walk I decided to do some research to see who has more of an impact on the field, the QB or the HC.

Below is the list of the last 20 SB's with the QB's and the HC's listed. The winners are on the left.

Mahomes/Garoppolo - Reid/Shanahan
Brady/Goff - BB/McVay
Foles/Brady - Pederson/BB
Brady/Ryan - BB/Quinn
P Manning/Newton - Kubiak/Rivera
Brady/Wilson - BB/Carroll
Wilson/P Manning - Carroll/Fox
Flacco/Kaepernick - Harbawl/Harbawl
Eli/Brady - Coughlin/BB
Rodgers/Big Ben - McCarthy/Triplin
Brees/P Manning - Payton/Caldwell
Big Ben/Warner - Triplin/Whisenhunt
Eli/Brady - Coughlin/BB
P Manning/Grossman - Dungy/Lovie Smith
Big Ben/Hasselbeck - Triplin/Holmgren
Brady/McNabb - BB/Reid
Brady/Delhomme - BB/Fox
Johnson/Gannon - Gruden/Callahan
Brady/Warner - BB/Martz
Dilfer/Collins - Billick/Fassel

Looking at that list I see many more average or below average HC's than I do average or below average QB's.

Bill Belichick has told us repeatedly that it's a players game and unless you believe he's blowing smoke up the players' arses with that comment, he's correct.

 

[everlong]

It's too simplistic of a comparison. Many of the teams up there made\won it because they had great defenses.

 

[randomk1]

It's too simplistic of a comparison. Many of the teams up there made\won it because they had great defenses.

How many QBs are on a rookie deal i wonder? Quite a few i think.

I think there is a multi year window if you have defense in place with a fast developing rookie QB

 

[signbabybrady]

I thought this was going to be an MTV Deathmatch.

Do they still do that?

 

[Doctor DDS]

Great coaches put their teams in a position to be competitive year after year. BB is the ultimate example but we've seen numerous coaches who seemingly always have their teams in contention. BB's ability to keep the Pats as a top 4 team by being ahead of the curve with cap/roster management and his fluid game planning both week to week and within games has been incredible. All that said, the ultimate success has often been Brady driven. Not sure if BB out coached Reid in the 2nd half of the 2018 AFCCG or if it was just Brady nutting up time after time in the 4th Qtr and OT. Not surprising that once Reid got a HOF level QB he is all of a sudden a better coach.

My opinion:

BB - good coach in Cleveland but did not have the horses - uncertain what happens if team does not move at end of tenure. Learns many lessons.

BB starts as a very good coach in NE but develops exponentially in his role. Is the first to master the cap and appropriately valuing positions on the field. Creates effective teams by selecting players for very specific roles. Able to lead a defense first team with a smart/ball control offense to initial dynasty through roster building and a scheme maximizing league rules. Able to help mold Brady into the type of player he needs and Brady rewards him with multiple clutch moments. (2001 - 2006)

Middle BB adjusts approach needed due to rule changes and adapts accordingly. Teams become more offense oriented with Brady as the center piece. Teams are just as good but less successful and fall a bit short in playoffs mainly due to bad luck. (2007 - 2013)

Late BB - stays disciplined with cap. For the first time he loses multiple players that are very successful elsewhere. Shift to smaller teams across league leads him to go bigger and use a more TE centric style. Brady centerpiece of strategy and allows him to allocate $ away from skill position players. Team wins 3 teams - a few breaks go there way.

I think BB probably wins 5 or 6 AFC's and 3 Super Bowls if he had one of the top 5 or 6 QB's during this run. Probably 3 and 2 if he had a top 10 QB. Not sure he wins any without a top 10 QB. Maybe makes the Super Bowl a year or 2.

In hindsight it's interesting to look at which Pats teams won it or lost and how it often came down to just a play or 2 in the run. Not sure how much credit or blame a coach gets in those scenario's.

Fortunate teams: (not saying they were not deserving and that the other team did not get breaks as well)
2001 - tuck rule/Vinatieri kick
2003 - while Pats should have won game the Kasey kick OOB was a great break - if game goes OT and Panthers have ball first am not sure what happens
2014 - Butler pick
2016 - No face mask call on Logan Ryan which would have offset holding call making FG possible, win OT coin toss

Unfortunate teams:
2006 - team sick in loss to Colts - questionable OPI on Brown and DPI on Hobbs
2007 - OL early injury and no hold call on Manning hail mary
2011 - Gronk hurt and all the fumbles bouncing wrong way - Manningham catch
2017 - New catch rule interpretation during Super Bowl, Brady strip sack (was positive they would score that drive)

Change one or two things and the dynasty could look a lot different. I thought the 2010 team was an absolute wagon as that season finished but they ended up laying an egg. 2018 was the opposite. Struggled much of the year but clutch when it counted.

 

[1960Pats]

It's too simplistic of a comparison. Many of the teams up there made\won it because they had great defenses.

Simplistic is my middle name.

There are 40 teams listed and I don't see many that made it because of great defenses.

 

[1960Pats]

I thought this was going to be an MTV Deathmatch.

Do they still do that?

How does that work. I haven't watched MTV since this...

 

[everlong]

Simplistic is my middle name.

There are 40 teams listed and I don't see many that made it because of great defenses.

2000 Ravens
2001 Patriots
2002 Bucs
2003 Patriots and Panthers
2004 Patriots and Eagles
2005 Steelers and Seahawks
2006 Bears
2007 Giants
2008 Steelers
2011 Giants
2013 Seahawks and Broncos
2014 Seahawks
2015 Broncos and Panthers
2018 Patriots
2019 49ers

A few of these had great offenses as well but they don't get there without terrific defenses. There were also some defenses like the 2006 Colts or 2016 Falcons who although not great defenses by the numbers took off at the end of the year into the playoffs. Both of the Giants defenses sort of fall into this category as well.

 

[Bill Lee]

Now that the Pats let Brady walk I decided to do some research to see who has more of an impact on the field, the QB or the HC.

Below is the list of the last 20 SB's with the QB's and the HC's listed. The winners are on the left.

Mahomes/Garoppolo - Reid/Shanahan
Brady/Goff - BB/McVay
Foles/Brady - Pederson/BB
Brady/Ryan - BB/Quinn
P Manning/Newton - Kubiak/Rivera
Brady/Wilson - BB/Carroll
Wilson/P Manning - Carroll/Fox
Flacco/Kaepernick - Harbawl/Harbawl
Eli/Brady - Coughlin/BB
Rodgers/Big Ben - McCarthy/Triplin
Brees/P Manning - Payton/Caldwell
Big Ben/Warner - Triplin/Whisenhunt
Eli/Brady - Coughlin/BB
P Manning/Grossman - Dungy/Lovie Smith
Big Ben/Hasselbeck - Triplin/Holmgren
Brady/McNabb - BB/Reid
Brady/Delhomme - BB/Fox
Johnson/Gannon - Gruden/Callahan
Brady/Warner - BB/Martz
Dilfer/Collins - Billick/Fassel

Looking at that list I see many more average or below average HC's than I do average or below average QB's.

Bill Belichick has told us repeatedly that it's a players game and unless you believe he's blowing smoke up the players' arses with that comment, he's correct.

What I see is a lot of "one hit wonders" who make it to the SB once or maybe twice but never make it back.

I think BB is all about sustained success rather than ringing the bell once or twice and living on that for the next ten or twenty years.

Look at the Rams: rang the bell in 2000 and 2001 then a huge drought till two years ago where they made it and lost to us, and now a total freaking rebuild because they went all in to get there, signing absurd contracts and trading away future draft picks for players that won't even be on their team this season.

 

[1960Pats]

What I see is a lot of "one hit wonders" who make it to the SB once or maybe twice but never make it back.

I think BB is all about sustained success rather than ringing the bell once or twice and living on that for the next ten or twenty years.

Look at the Rams: rang the bell in 2000 and 2001 then a huge drought till two years ago where they made it and lost to us, and now a total freaking rebuild because they went all in to get there, signing absurd contracts and trading away future draft picks for players that won't even be on their team this season.

After reading your post I decided to check the QB's more closely. You're correct in that out of the 40 there are 18 Qb's who only made it once so far. Some of those, like Mahomes, Garoppolo, Goff, Brees, Foles and Rodgers, still have a chance to make it again.

As for the multiple SB participants, Tampa QB Tom Brady (man that sucks just writing it) leads the pack with 9 (6 wins). Next are PM with 4(2), Big Ben 3(2), Eli 2(2), Wilson 2(1) and Warner 2(1).

 

[BobDigital]

QBs > HCs. I think that is well established. HCs have won in the past without QBs due to being able to build great defenses and finding ways to make their offense generate some points.

The thing about the HCs who win due to defense is they need to draft low to get those game changing players. Looking at the Ds that won without great QBs we see this over and over. At this point I would be fine with the Patriots tanking and trading some of their older players away for one year to get some much needed draft capital for their rebuild TBH.

 

[Coolade]

Another way of putting it is which job is tougher?

You look at the separation and instantly it looks like belichick is up against it with 53 guys ,salary cap, then oh yeah coach the team , develop the players.. (like brady in 2000)

Then brady just has to go to new team... do his preparation and play football... except now hes 43. Tough also.

Brady made Bill's job easier. No doubt. So bill has more difficulty now. We shall see.

 

[TheRainMaker]

It’s extremely rare that a HC can sustain their job with bad QB play.

And it’s no surprise that when a QB does well, that Coach is in “Coach of the year consideration”.

BB has his work cut out for him.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Think I might have said this once or twice.

Players > coaches. Talent > Scheme.

I read a comment about Bill keeping us competitive? No Brady kept us competitive.

How competitive do you feel rn?

Bill is a football god but will be the first to tell you its the players.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Look at the Rams: rang the bell in 2000 and 2001 then a huge drought till two years ago

It was 1999 and 2001. They struck gold in ‘99 with FA and draft but couldn’t draft worth a damn after that. Also ignored the O-line while running their 7 step drop back passing offense which leaves their tackles on islands with no TE or RB help. Eventually, Warner got injured and replaced him with Bulger. They couldn’t build around him either and they soon imploded.

It’s too bad as they had an amazing nucleus on offense. They should’ve had way more success.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

It was 1999 and 2001. They struck gold in ‘99 with FA and draft but couldn’t draft worth a damn after that. Also ignored the O-line while running their 7 step drop back passing offense which leaves their tackles on islands with no TE help. Eventually, Warner got injured and replaced him with Bulger. They couldn’t build around him either and they soon imploded.

It’s too bad as they had an amazing nucleus on offense. They should’ve had way more success.

Imagine if they drafted Moss in 98'?

 

[Joker]

Think I might have said this once or twice.

Players > coaches. Talent > Scheme.

I read a comment about Bill keeping us competitive? No Brady kept us competitive.

How competitive do you feel rn?

Bill is a football god but will be the first to tell you its the players.

Talent>Scheme? I seem to remember a Super Bowl in 2001 that sorta destroys this statement on its' face.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Imagine if they drafted Moss in 98'?

I don’t think they would’ve taken Holt in ‘99 then.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I don’t think they would’ve taken Holt in ‘99 then.

I know I always think about that? Maybe Bruce suffers an injury and they feel the need lol.

Warner, Faulk, Bruce, Holt and Randy???

 

[TheRainMaker]

I know I always think about that? Maybe Bruce suffers an injury and they feel the need lol.

Warner, Faulk, Bruce, Holt and Randy???

What if Carroll/Grier took Moss instead of Robert Edwards? Him and Glenn would’ve been awesome!