Pre-game Thread: Jets @ Pats

[Tunescribe]

Why would we keep Mason when Onwenu is better and cheaper? That only makes "PatsFans sense", but makes no sense outside PatsFans.

You forgot to mention who you are going to cut with the 15+M a year you are going to pay Thuney. Next year Strange will be nearly as good as Thuney at a fraction of the cost.

In 2023 do you want Strange and Onwenu at less than $4M or Mason and Thuney at > $25M? See how ridiculous your comment was?

Yes, I was hypothesizing idealized scenarios involving veteran offensive linemen, that's the kind of thing we do here at PatsFans since none of us, including yourself, work in Foxboro or possess intimate salary cap knowledge. What's "ridiculous" is you calling my comment ridiculous.

The contract dollars you broach might in retrospect suggest insurmountable situations, but things possibly could've been worked any number of ways. Perhaps you can recall what efforts were made by the Patriots to extend Thuney early before they franchised him confirming his obvious value. Maybe you concluded before the season began that 2022 is a lost cause but I've long held the belief that NOW is what matters -- especially when trying to develop a promising young QB who has regressed considerably through little fault of his own. In that regard, retaining Mason and using him or Owenu on the left side might've been part of the answer.

Again, I'm just mulling ideas through which the OL might've been solidified early, preventing the crap show that thus far has contributed to this offense going off the rails.

 

[Uptown]

NY Jets' D.J. Reed is arguably NFL's best CB in a vital category

New York Jets cornerback D.J. Reed is having a standout season thanks to his excellence in one particular style of coverage.

jetsxfactor.com

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Yes, I was hypothesizing idealized scenarios involving veteran offensive linemen, that's the kind of thing we do here at PatsFans since none of us, including yourself, work in Foxboro or possess intimate salary cap knowledge. What's "ridiculous" is you calling my comment ridiculous.

The contract dollars you broach might in retrospect suggest insurmountable situations, but things possibly could've been worked any number of ways. Perhaps you can recall what efforts were made by the Patriots to extend Thuney early before they franchised him confirming his obvious value. Maybe you concluded before the season began that 2022 is a lost cause but I've long held the belief that NOW is what matters -- especially when trying to develop a promising young QB who has regressed considerably through little fault of his own. In that regard, retaining Mason and using him or Owenu on the left side might've been part of the answer.

Again, I'm just mulling ideas through which the OL might've been solidified early, preventing the crap show that thus far has contributed to this offense going off the rails.

If an NFL team does not want to constantly go up and down in the standings they have to consistently integrate new talent, mostly from the draft. It is inevitable that playing draft picks will lead to some instability, that can not be avoided if a team wants to have new younger cheaper talent so they can consistently win over a number of years. There is always ways to keep veterans to add more stability for a short period of time, but it is better to integrate new draft talent over the long term.

My point was that it is better to move on from Mason and Thuney. The crap show is due to the tackles, not the guards. I realize that you were mulling ideas, and you usually have good ideas, but this was not one of those cases.

 

[Ollie]

My point was that it is better to move on from Mason and Thuney. The crap show is due to the tackles, not the guards. I realize that you were mulling ideas, and you usually have good ideas, but this was not one of those cases.

Agreed although RG Owenu is a pretty good RT too. Having Brown at LT and Onwenu at RT with Mason as RG would be decent IMO

 

[venecol]

I know it's a warm-up but it feels like that ball takes forever to make it to the EZ.

 

[Zuma]

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Agreed although RG Owenu is a pretty good RT too. Having Brown at LT and Onwenu at RT with Mason as RG would be decent IMO

Agreed but BB specifically addressed this recently and said Onwenu is really a guard. He is right. They have to fix the right tackle issue without making the right guard worse but unfortunately that might not happen until 2023. Wynn can do it, let's hope he steps up.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Mac is 100% better than Z Wilson. What is horrendous about that? Mac is Mr. Cool compared to Wilson .

Although the OL needs to be better, Mac does not handle pressure well. Hopefully it will start to "click" for Mac. Until it clicks, everyone will be bringing the pressure.

 

[JMC00]

36% under pressure isn't that bad, Aaron Rodgers in 2020 when he won the MVP was 45% on throws when pressured.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

The scary part is that Mac was better last year. Eh well, I live to see the green shoots of Mac Competence this week.

 

[upstater1]

Just imagine how much better things might be right now if they held onto Shaq Mason and Joe Thuney -- or at least one of them to go with Owenu. They're not tackles but could've been important cornerstones to build from. Sometimes actually paying premium dollars for offensive linemen is worth it, because as goes the OL so goes the offense.

Onwenu though is better than Mason and last year Onwenu was horrible at RG. I think they made the right decision.

 

[patfanken]

One of my points was that having a settled veteran OL in front of a young developing quarterback is good policy.

I noted that Strange eventually will be a good player but his expected growing pains have been costly. Add the RT woes and mix in some injury absences (Andrews for a few games) and you have an unsettled unit contributing to losses.

I have little doubt Thuney would've stayed with the right contract and probably would've been worth top dollar, he's been rock solid in Kansas City. One of Mason/Owenu possibly could've switched to LG and done fine.

Thuney was a GREAT LG guard for us, who could also move out to either T position as well. He was worth EVERY dollar KC paid for him. If you want to criticize Bill, criticize him for not letting him walk after the 2019 season and grab a 3r round pick, than keep him in 2020 (the first year of a total rebuild and get nothing. But the fact was, given how tight the Pats were already against the cap in 2020, There was NO way we could have signed him.

And as for Mason, just ask Bucs fans what they think about him with all the OL problems they are having there this season. He had a few really good years for us, but IIRC he wasn't AS good during his last 2 seasons for us. BTW you don't have to go far to find Buc's fans. Just go to the Brady thread on some other forum.

I think the most important think we should take from this discussion is it is NOT about individual players, its about the UNIT they are in. It is an absolute truism that the problems of one player affects the rest of the unit and their effectiveness. I'm not all about PFF, but the relative numbers of Thuney and Strange in their rookie years are striking. THAT is the problem of taking a snapshot of a player and labelling him based on that snapshot for all time. (what we do here) Players constantly evolve for good or bad.

Just like Mac, what will be fascinating to me will be to watch how how responds to adversity. Now QWilliams is a top 5 DT in the league, Strange is going to lose some of those battles. Why would we expect something different? That is the fate of offensive linemen. They can win 90% of their battles and get killed for the 10% they lose Its a pretty thankless job when you think on it.

 

[patfanken]

This chart is telling, but I'm ashamed that the first thing that came to mind when i fist saw it was NOT how well Owenu was ranked but that I coached Chris Lindstrom's father when he was in HS.

BTW- Linstrom's dad was my 3rd best OLman even though he was the only one over 200lbs. Eventually he would keep on growing have a good college career at BU, and played 3 or 4 years in the NFL. (must of had better coaching after HS, but at the poker tables, I take full credit for both the father AND son. )

 

[Thelonious]

I guess I just think that until we have an OC and a QB coach who can actually "do their job" at the NFL level, it doesn't really matter whether we win this game. The rest of the season is just too tough for a team so crippled in those key roles, which are so particularly important when you have a ...developing.... young quarterback. I think it somewhat more likely than not that they lose this game. The Jets are a more solid team at this point. I think there is little chance the Pats make the playoffs. I don't think that really matters, though. They aren't ready yet, and the ENTIRETY of this year will be and has been about NEXT year, and the years following. This is an evaluation and development year. Some will develop; some will not. I'd put the qb in that same uncertain category.

 

[Uptown]

 

[Ross12]

Bailey has been messed up for a while now, so hopefully a 4 week IR stint (at minimum) helps him get right. Who knows if Palardy is any good, but he really can't be any worse than what Bailey has been giving the team in the last couple outings.

 

[Tunescribe]

Thuney was a GREAT LG guard for us, who could also move out to either T position as well. He was worth EVERY dollar KC paid for him. If you want to criticize Bill, criticize him for not letting him walk after the 2019 season and grab a 3r round pick, than keep him in 2020 (the first year of a total rebuild and get nothing. But the fact was, given how tight the Pats were already against the cap in 2020, There was NO way we could have signed him.

And as for Mason, just ask Bucs fans what they think about him with all the OL problems they are having there this season. He had a few really good years for us, but IIRC he wasn't AS good during his last 2 seasons for us. BTW you don't have to go far to find Buc's fans. Just go to the Brady thread on some other forum.

I think the most important think we should take from this discussion is it is NOT about individual players, its about the UNIT they are in. It is an absolute truism that the problems of one player affects the rest of the unit and their effectiveness. I'm not all about PFF, but the relative numbers of Thuney and Strange in their rookie years are striking. THAT is the problem of taking a snapshot of a player and labelling him based on that snapshot for all time. (what we do here) Players constantly evolve for good or bad.

Just like Mac, what will be fascinating to me will be to watch how how responds to adversity. Now QWilliams is a top 5 DT in the league, Strange is going to lose some of those battles. Why would we expect something different? That is the fate of offensive linemen. They can win 90% of their battles and get killed for the 10% they lose Its a pretty thankless job when you think on it.

Thank you, Ken, for reiterating and fleshing out some of the same points I've been trying to make. There is a reason the OL is referred to as a "unit" and no truly justifiable reason(s) for it becoming so problematic this season. I've belabored this issue because of its contributions to stunting the development of Mac Jones. Fingers crossed that improvements across the board will be seen out of the bye.

Some telltale info out of Tom Curran's NBSBH show this evening: the Patriots are near top of the league in number of stretch zone run attempts yet near the bottom in yards gained per attempt. Conversely, in conventional gap run blocking they're among leaders in yards per carry. Makes you wonder where things would be with an experienced OC and capable OL coach.

 

[signbabybrady]

Bailey has been messed up for a while now, so hopefully a 4 week IR stint (at minimum) helps him get right. Who knows if Palardy is any good, but he really can't be any worse than what Bailey has been giving the team in the last couple outings.

He's had over 300 punts and has a 45 yard average. With how bad Bailey has been I think we'll be ok. He just better not throw off Folk.

 

[Tunescribe]

Bailey has been messed up for a while now, so hopefully a 4 week IR stint (at minimum) helps him get right. Who knows if Palardy is any good, but he really can't be any worse than what Bailey has been giving the team in the last couple outings.

I wonder if we should assume Folk kicks off now.

 

[captain stone]

I wonder if we should assume Folk kicks off now.

I hope not… That would mess him up worse than a new holder - who has plenty of holding experience anyway - would do.