Pre-game Thread: Jets @ Pats

[Tunescribe]

But this is what I'm seeing from Cajuste. I saw him get abused a lot. He was the worst of the 3. Cannon can hold his own and doesn't get bull rushed, but he is on his last legs and simply can't move laterally. Of the 3, I'd trust Wynn the most. We're badly in need of not just one, but at least 2 tackles. And Trent Brown is frequently injured as well

Just imagine how much better things might be right now if they held onto Shaq Mason and Joe Thuney -- or at least one of them to go with Owenu. They're not tackles but could've been important cornerstones to build from. Sometimes actually paying premium dollars for offensive linemen is worth it, because as goes the OL so goes the offense.

 

[signbabybrady]

another must win game. 5-4 after nine games and realistically can only lose three more games - one of them cannot be to the Jets, a team everyone on here thinks is an embarrassment of a franchise. Blow this one to Zach Wilson and this team needs to go 5-2 over their last 7 and they haven't finished strong in the final stanza in quite some time. It's going to be around 40 at the game with steady 10-15 mph winds and gusts to 30. Bill the Coach can't count on 5 Folk field goals in this game - let's get some touchdowns.

Folk pisses into the wind and doesn't even get wet.

 

[signbabybrady]

Just imagine how much better things might be right now if they held onto Shaq Mason and Joe Thuney -- or at least one of them to go with Owenu. They're not tackles but could've been important cornerstones to build from. Sometimes actually paying premium dollars for offensive linemen is worth it, because as goes the OL so goes the offense.

Do we avoid those awful TEs in your revision too or might it have cost us Judon? Maybe a fair compromise on the revision one linemen one TE and Judon lol. Bottom line it's easy to sit here and say we should have locked both up....the OL is mess so of course. But at the same time tough to shell out what it would have required on guards. It is what is. Coach up Strange and make Strange and Onwenu a solid duo and it can still be the right call.

 

[signbabybrady]

No Barmore vs:

Jets
@ Vikings
Bills
@ Cardinals
assume he will also miss the Raiders game too since they'll likely stay for the week on the west coast...

If he's actually close at the end of three weeks he could travel with the team or even just travel solo a week later.

 

[Ross12]

If he's actually close at the end of three weeks he could travel with the team or even just travel solo a week later.

Certainly possible

 

[turkeyneck]

One thing about Wynn is it's not only his level of play. I think he's probably more talented than the other two (Cannon and Cajuste) but it's his costly penalties at the most inopportune times that kills drives and his costly pressures that he gives up. I have that image of him in my mind being pushed back while he trying to protect Mac like he was on ice. Never saw anything like it before.

That's a technique flaw, the kind of thing that Scar would zero in on and get fixed. I'm sure our current OL coach is on it.

 

[1960Pats]

Zach Wilson has snarky exchange with reporter when asked about last Patriots loss

The snark is off the charts here.

www.masslive.com

Reporter: Zach, you were pretty emotional when you came off the field against them a couple of weeks ago. How do you put those emotions, keep those emotions out of the way this game?

Wilson: “Right, I thought they were good emotions. I mean I was frustrated and I still believe nobody outside of this building knows what they’re talking about.”

Reporter: Oh, well I do.

Wilson: “Yeah? Why’d you turn down a coaching position?”

Reporter: Who told you that? Are you in a good head space right now?

Wilson: “Yeah, great head space, we’re winning football games, we’re where we want to be, and there’s still so much to improve on, so from a team aspect, we’re excited with where we’re at, and it’s going to be a great challenge for us.”

At some point the players (and coaches for that matter) need to understand that those reporters have a job to do and deserve respect.

 

[1960Pats]

I wish someone, anyone, would say this to Bill.

You want me to give him a call and tell him?

 

[Tunescribe]

Do we avoid those awful TEs in your revision too or might it have cost us Judon? Maybe a fair compromise on the revision one linemen one TE and Judon lol. Bottom line it's easy to sit here and say we should have locked both up....the OL is mess so of course. But at the same time tough to shell out what it would have required on guards. It is what is. Coach up Strange and make Strange and Onwenu a solid duo and it can still be the right call.

Sure, we can mull any scenario of "what ifs." Like, keeping Mason and/or Thuney and using the Strange pick for a TE or LB. Top veteran talent at OL when you have a developing young quarterback and no OL coach to speak of perhaps should be prioritized. Strange likely will become a good player over time but his growing pains have been costly.

 

[1960Pats]

That's a technique flaw, the kind of thing that Scar would zero in on and get fixed. I'm sure our current OL coach is on it.

Scar commented a while back that Wynn is in the "twilight zone", whatever that means.

Scar was amazing. Whatever group he coached performed better.

 

[Tunescribe]

That's a technique flaw, the kind of thing that Scar would zero in on and get fixed. I'm sure our current OL coach is on it.

You don't know that for sure. Wynn was a first-round pick who hasn't lived up to that billing since he got here.

 

[PScottman]

You "fix" the right side by weakening the left side, the question is just whether you end up with an overall net gain in performance or not. I'm inclined to think you would, but indeed, you'd have shaken up the continuity. That said, there have been moving parts at every position except LT and RG over the past few games so how much continuity really is there right now?

I don't disagree with the talent aspect at all, but football isn't just about talent.

It's likely one of, if not the, largest variable, but not the only one. The issue is thinking of the OL as five individual talents instead of a unit. Right now there is basically one and a half true weak points...RT and LG. RT is definitely a talent weak point. LG is still an unknown if its talent or more the ability to partner with the C and LT effectively in executing their role. Compounding the number of variables to address by multiple big swaps at this point in the season is much more likely to lead to free rushers than making scheme augments to the RT issue.

Addressing the talent weakness at RT can be addressed multiple ways, chips, TE stays, extra OL, etc. Add in Wynn was pretty much the same turnstile at LT early last year before he started playing a little better and what guarantees does the swap even make?? Not to mention that Wynn is basically now Strange's safety valve (you prefer Ferentz at LG instead should Strange get dominated by the Jets DL again???).

There's no "solution" to this - only making the best of what is here...no savior walking through the door...I remain in the camp that as a unit addressing only one aspect through change carries much less risk overall.

 

[PScottman]

Scar commented a while back that Wynn is in the "twilight zone", whatever that means.

If you look at the earlier comments from the posters here like Ashley it's pretty apparent - you can have any amount of talent in the world, but if you don't have the mental aspect to go with it - focus, drive, determination, patience, etc it doesn't matter. Jeff George was a massively talented, athletic kid...with nothing between the ears. Troy Brown didn't have massive talent in every measure yet all he did was produce because he used guile and smarts to fill the void where talent peaked.

Wynn has the "measurables" outside of arm length, but as was stated seems to take plays off, makes innumerable poorly timed penalties, and just doesn't apply his talent at all. He's absolutely embodies Rod Serling's line "It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge."

Wynn's "pit" of fears is way deeper than his summit of knowledge.

 

[Ross12]

I don't disagree with the talent aspect at all, but football isn't just about talent.

It's likely one of, if not the, largest variable, but not the only one. The issue is thinking of the OL as five individual talents instead of a unit. Right now there is basically one and a half true weak points...RT and LG. RT is definitely a talent weak point. LG is still an unknown if its talent or more the ability to partner with the C and LT effectively in executing their role. Compounding the number of variables to address by multiple big swaps at this point in the season is much more likely to lead to free rushers than making scheme augments to the RT issue.

Addressing the talent weakness at RT can be addressed multiple ways, chips, TE stays, extra OL, etc. Add in Wynn was pretty much the same turnstile at LT early last year before he started playing a little better and what guarantees does the swap even make?? Not to mention that Wynn is basically now Strange's safety valve (you prefer Ferentz at LG instead should Strange get dominated by the Jets DL again???).

There's no "solution" to this - only making the best of what is here...no savior walking through the door...I remain in the camp that as a unit addressing only one aspect through change carries much less risk overall.

I'm not convinced Strange's recent issues aren't just due to Andrews being out...

Certainly moving multiple guys can be a risky proposition. I should clarify that I don't expect that they actually did this, I'm only walking through the logic of it if it turns out that they did based on rumors.

 

[ashley]

Getting everyone ready for a Saturday:

 

[JMC00]

Just imagine how much better things might be right now if they held onto Shaq Mason and Joe Thuney

Thuney didn't want to stay and Mason & Onwenu are RG 1 had to go and it wasn't gonna be the better and cheaper one. Thuney as a rookie had similair struggles, in fact I'd said he had more of a struggle given circumstances.

Thuney rookie year-
Allowed Pressure Opportunities: 593 (Non-spike, non-penalty Snaps when participating as a pass blocker)
45 pressures allowed
32 hurries allowed

That was on an offense with Tom Brady that won the SB


Strange-
Allowed Pressure Opportunities: 263
13 pressures allowed
8 hurries allowed

Strange doesn't have the benefit of blocking for Brady. He also had Ferentz next to him for a couple of games and not like Trent Brown has been some great wall.

Hell Thuney was still having struggles in his 2nd season
Allowed Pressure Opportunities: 628
36 pressures allowed
21 hurries allowed.

But guess we can't give that same leeway to Strange. Bet if I dug up posts from 2016 & 2017 there would be similair posts about Thuney.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Just imagine how much better things might be right now if they held onto Shaq Mason and Joe Thuney -- or at least one of them to go with Owenu. They're not tackles but could've been important cornerstones to build from. Sometimes actually paying premium dollars for offensive linemen is worth it, because as goes the OL so goes the offense.

Why would we keep Mason when Onwenu is better and cheaper? That only makes "PatsFans sense", but makes no sense outside PatsFans.

You forgot to mention who you are going to cut with the 15+M a year you are going to pay Thuney. Next year Strange will be nearly as good as Thuney at a fraction of the cost.

In 2023 do you want Strange and Onwenu at less than $4M or Mason and Thuney at > $25M? See how ridiculous your comment was?

 

[Tunescribe]

Thuney didn't want to stay and Mason & Onwenu are RG 1 had to go and it wasn't gonna be the better and cheaper one. Thuney as a rookie had similair struggles, in fact I'd said he had more of a struggle given circumstances.

Thuney rookie year-
Allowed Pressure Opportunities: 593 (Non-spike, non-penalty Snaps when participating as a pass blocker)
45 pressures allowed
32 hurries allowed
tttt
That was on an offense with Tom Brady that won the SB


Strange-
Allowed Pressure Opportunities: 263
13 pressures allowed
8 hurries allowed

Strange doesn't have the benefit of blocking for Brady. He also had Ferentz next to him for a couple of games and not like Trent Brown has been some great wall.

One of my points was that having a settled veteran OL in front of a young developing quarterback is good policy.

I noted that Strange eventually will be a good player but his expected growing pains have been costly. Add the RT woes and mix in some injury absences (Andrews for a few games) and you have an unsettled unit contributing to losses.

I have little doubt Thuney would've stayed with the right contract and probably would've been worth top dollar, he's been rock solid in Kansas City. One of Mason/Owenu possibly could've switched to LG and done fine.

 

[Triumph]

 

[Ollie]

One of my points was that having a settled veteran OL in front of a young developing quarterback is good policy.

I noted that Strange eventually will be a good player but his expected growing pains have been costly. Add the RT woes and mix in some injury absences (Andrews for a few games) and you have an unsettled unit contributing to losses.

I have little doubt Thuney would've stayed with the right contract and probably would've been worth top dollar, he's been rock solid in Kansas City. One of Mason/Owenu possibly could've switched to LG and done fine.

I'm not sure we were ever going to compete with KCs 5yr 80M deal and at the time whilst people were sad to lose a player of that quality i think people understood that that is a pretty big contract. For me Mason being traded was the more confusing of the two. A much more affordable contract and a good player. I know they projected Onwenu as a RG so perhaps that was why Mason was traded but Onwenu is great at RT too.

A line of Brown Strange Andrews Mason Onwenu would be decent.

I don't understand why we aren't putting Wynn back at LT. he was an average LT but and awful RT. We've created a glaring weakness.