Paul Perillo Made an Excellent Point on Mac vs. Zappe

[captain stone]

Why do you ask questions you already know the answer to?

How can I stop myself from answering a question with another question?

 

[captain stone]

Did you watch the video?

What video?

 

[NovaScotiaPatsFan]

What video?

The one at the beginning of this thread.

 

[Tunescribe]

How can I stop myself from answering a question with another question?

Would you like me to help find the answer for you?

 

[StanleyGrogan]

Cant we just appreciate that we now have two Qbs that are servicable at worst? Why does everything have to be a big fight. I just don't get it. I prefer what I've seen from Zappe (THIS SEASON) I don't think he's a better QB though.

 

[Salsalife]

This is worth a watch. This guy analyzes Zappe's play against Cleveland. He talks a lot about Zappe's efficiency of movement and footwork, which is what I saw as well with Zappe.

Yes. I saw it. Super Analysis! Foot in the dirt, survey, ball out and accurate. Zappe skills are really honed well. Great Mechanics!

 

[RodThePat]

This argument about level of difficulty is kinda silly, because whenever Mac has been asked to carry more of the offensive load and be the primary driver of success on that side of the ball he's failed. It's just a simple reality. He's been bad this year when asked to be more aggressive, he was mostly ineffective last year whenever he had to play from behind and throw the ball to come back, he hasn't been great against teams with a winning record. When he was great, he was great under the exact same circumstances Zappe has succeeded in: playing from the lead, running game working, facing bad/injury ravaged teams, not throwing the ball a lot, using play action. People keep bringing up the Ravens game as an example of what Mac can do that Zappe can't and that's insanity to me. Yes, when asked to be aggressive and throw the ball down the field, most QBs will see their big time throws go up, that's just how it goes. Now, what truly separates the "meh" from the great is: when asked to carry the offense, does your turnover rate also increase at the same level as your playmaking? In Mac's case it absolutely has, I'd even argue his mistakes have increased at a bigger rate than his playmaking. In the Ravens game he not only threw 3 picks, he hit Queen in the chest for a pick six in the redzone that was dropped.

In short, when Mac was good, he was in the exact same context Zappe has been good in. But in his past 9 games, Mac has thrown 10 TDs and 12 INTs with a 76 passer rating while being asked to carry more of the offense. It's not like we have any indication that Mac can give you more than Zappe with an increased level of difficulty. That may very well be the case, but we have no concrete evidence of it. He simply hasn't done it. Zappe hasn't either, but he hasn't been asked to yet.

 

[lancerman]

This argument about level of difficulty is kinda silly, because whenever Mac has been asked to carry more of the offensive load and be the primary driver of success on that side of the ball he's failed. It's just a simple reality. He's been bad this year when asked to be more aggressive, he was mostly ineffective last year whenever he had to play from behind and throw the ball to come back, he hasn't been great against teams with a winning record. When he was great, he was great under the exact same circumstances Zappe has succeeded in: playing from the lead, running game working, facing bad/injury ravaged teams, not throwing the ball a lot, using play action. People keep bringing up the Ravens game as an example of what Mac can do that Zappe can't and that's insanity to me. Yes, when asked to be aggressive and throw the ball down the field, most QBs will see their big time throws go up, that's just how it goes. Now, what truly separates the "meh" from the great is: when asked to carry the offense, does your turnover rate also increase at the same level as your playmaking? In Mac's case it absolutely has, I'd even argue his mistakes have increased at a bigger rate than his playmaking. In the Ravens game he not only threw 3 picks, he hit Queen in the chest for a pick six in the redzone that was dropped.

In short, when Mac was good, he was in the exact same context Zappe has been good in. But in his past 9 games, Mac has thrown 10 TDs and 12 INTs with a 76 passer rating while being asked to carry more of the offense. It's not like we have any indication that Mac can give you more than Zappe with an increased level of difficulty. That may very well be the case, but we have no concrete evidence of it. He simply hasn't done it. Zappe hasn't either, but he hasn't been asked to yet.

The issue is what Mac did last year and what Zappe's doing now has a ceiling and it's unsustainable to move forward with a QB like that. You can maybe get lucky once with an insane defense and pull it off once. But you'll never have multiple Super Bowls or be a contender consistently.

You have to eventually let them off the leash and screw up some so they can get a feel for it and hopefully iron out the mistakes and increase the positives. If we started asking Zappe to do what Mac was asked to, all of a sudden he starts being the one making mistakes.

I said earlier in the thread, Peyton Manning went 26TD's and 28INT's his rookie year. That doesn't sound a whole lot different from Mac going 10TD and 12INT in 9 games (a little over half a season so you can extrapolate that to 20 and 24). Josh Allen threw more INT's than TD's his first year. This is just going to happen if you don't have a super stacked team (think Mahomes always having wide open Kelce or Hill) when you have the QB off training wheels. You have to give them the time to work it out.

 

[RodThePat]

The issue is what Mac did last year and what Zappe's doing now has a ceiling and it's unsustainable to move forward with a QB like that. You can maybe get lucky once with an insane defense and pull it off once. But you'll never have multiple Super Bowls or be a contender consistently.

You have to eventually let them off the leash and screw up some so they can get a feel for it and hopefully iron out the mistakes and increase the positives. If we started asking Zappe to do what Mac was asked to, all of a sudden he starts being the one making mistakes.

I said earlier in the thread, Peyton Manning went 26TD's and 28INT's his rookie year. That doesn't sound a whole lot different from Mac going 10TD and 12INT in 9 games (a little over half a season so you can extrapolate that to 20 and 24). Josh Allen threw more INT's than TD's his first year. This is just going to happen if you don't have a super stacked team (think Mahomes always having wide open Kelce or Hill) when you have the QB off training wheels. You have to give them the time to work it out.

I 100% agree the team's success is capped by that kind of QB play. I just disagree Mac has done enough to show he can potentially give you more than that. I think whenever he was good, he was good doing exactly what Zappe has done, and when asked to provide more he generally couldn't. Not saying he'll never be able to, of course, just that I don't buy this idea that "oh, Mac can do what Zappe does, but he can also do much more". Can he? With the training wheels off he's mostly faltered.

 

[Sicilian]

The issue is what Mac did last year and what Zappe's doing now has a ceiling and it's unsustainable to move forward with a QB like that. You can maybe get lucky once with an insane defense and pull it off once. But you'll never have multiple Super Bowls or be a contender consistently.

You have to eventually let them off the leash and screw up some so they can get a feel for it and hopefully iron out the mistakes and increase the positives. If we started asking Zappe to do what Mac was asked to, all of a sudden he starts being the one making mistakes.

I said earlier in the thread, Peyton Manning went 26TD's and 28INT's his rookie year. That doesn't sound a whole lot different from Mac going 10TD and 12INT in 9 games (a little over half a season so you can extrapolate that to 20 and 24). Josh Allen threw more INT's than TD's his first year. This is just going to happen if you don't have a super stacked team (think Mahomes always having wide open Kelce or Hill) when you have the QB off training wheels. You have to give them the time to work it out.

Agreed. Also, think of it like an offensive guard (obviously playing QB is more complicated, but just to use a simplified example). You have two players who could play LG on your team, a second year guy and a rookie. The 2nd year guy is given a lot of one on one matchups because you're expecting him to handle that in year 2. He struggles overall, and gets hurt. You then bring in the rookie guard, and because you DON'T trust him with those matchups, you change your scheme so he's always getting help, either from the LT or the C. He looks better, because he's being asked to shoulder less.

Mac definitely needs to play better than he did, but he was responsible for a much larger chunk of the offense than Zappe has, and the cast around him was still finding it's stride (along with the coaching staff). If Mac plays against Chicago and is still turning the ball over a lot, then there's a problem, because everyone else around him has been trending upwards.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

The issue is what Mac did last year and what Zappe's doing now has a ceiling and it's unsustainable to move forward with a QB like that. You can maybe get lucky once with an insane defense and pull it off once. But you'll never have multiple Super Bowls or be a contender consistently.

This really sums up the predicament that team is in. Some QB's never emerge from having the training wheels removed. At this point we don't know about Mac. Sticking with Zappe means that this would be the second season dedicated to developing a rookie QB and the inevitable rough patch that comes with the transition to driving the offense. For expediency sake, I hope Mac comes back healthy with a new perspective to help lead the team into the playoffs. Until Mac is healthy Zappe should continue to start and develop to be ready to step in if Mac proves he is not a true #1 QB. As others have said, having two viable QB's is good for the team.

 

[24Law]

This The Patriots aren't exactly the greatest September team in the history of the league, they usually take time to come into their own. As most of you know I'm one of the biggest Mac supporters, but as my esteemed colleague here says if he comes in with this offense and craps the bed over and over again I'd be fine with him being benched for Zappe. I just want what's best for the team. But in my opinion Mac hasn't gotten a fair shake yet.

I'd also love to know how many of the people who want to go with Zappe are the people who never wanted Mac here in the first place? The people who wanted to keep Cam, or to trade for Jimmy G, or to move up in the draft to get Lance or Fields or whoever.

Has Zappe gotten a fair shake tho? Would it be fair to him to bench him after that Browns game? I think we should stick with Zappe for as long as he is playing this way and is winning games. Doesn't mean he should be the starter for 20 years or that we should hurry up to trade Mac.

 

[rogerthat]

Mac has proven that he is a starter in this league, and he may even have a bright future, but he has never- and probably will never- move like Zappe.

 

[captain stone]

The one at the beginning of this thread.

Yes I did... Still think the play-calling through the first 3 games placed Mac at an unfair & unnecessary disadvantage, exacerbated by his spotty decision-making based in some part on his discomfort with the new system, aspects of which seem to have already been scrapped over the past 2 games anyway...

 

[captain stone]

Would you like me to help find the answer for you?

Can there really be only one answer to that question?

 

[Ian]

Mac has proven that he is a starter in this league, and he may even have a bright future, but he has never- and probably will never- move like Zappe.

 

[Tunescribe]

Can there really be only one answer to that question?

Why?

 

[PatsFan2]

Mac has proven that he is a starter in this league, and he may even have a bright future, but he has never- and probably will never- move like Zappe.

Yeah you can clearly see that Zappe have an ability to evade the rush. No QB is going to be able to that all the time but it's a an asset for a QB who can do it sometimes.

 

[rochrist]

Ok, but here's what was written about him before the draft:

Overall, Zappe's mental polish on a number of passing concepts combined with his pocket movement and anticipation on throws project him as a good back-up at the NFL level. His lack of size, arm strength and true athleticism limits his upside and viability to be an every-week starter. But his intelligence and timing would make him a nice addition for a quarterback room, and he could help get a team out of a game if an injury were to happen to their starter. However, those limitations would crop up with tighter windows and more athletic defenders at the NFL level if he had to see extended playing time.

Source: Bleacher Report

So, suppose instead of two starts against DET and CLE, we had extended playing time against more athletic defenders? Seems we don't know how that would go, do we?

I think there's a chance he's better than what this report suggests, but I also feel we'd need to see him against better competition and playing more from behind to get a more helpful evaluation of where he really is.

Yeah, we've seen that before. Take with a grain of salt. Comments on a certain TB12 pre-draft 2000:
--Poor build
--Skinny
--Lacks great physical stature and strength
--Lacks mobility and ability to avoid the rush
--Lacks a really strong arm
--Can’t drive the ball downfield
--Does not throw a really tight spiral
--System-type player who can get exposed if forced to ad lib
--Gets knocked down easily

 

[upstater1]

Has Zappe gotten a fair shake tho? Would it be fair to him to bench him after that Browns game? I think we should stick with Zappe for as long as he is playing this way and is winning games. Doesn't mean he should be the starter for 20 years or that we should hurry up to trade Mac.

If Belichick makes the determination that the playbook is limited with Zappe, and that gives the team a lesser chance of winning against better competition, then that will be the right decision.