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Patriots Training Camp- Thursday August 4th

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PatsFan2

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People say Meyers has "gotten better" each year, but has he REALLY?

While his targets have gone UP, his YPR has gone down. He had a better Catch rate with CAM throwing him the ball (72.8%) than Brady or Jones.
While he had 3 and 4 broken tackles in 2019& 2020, he had just 1 in 2021. His YAC has steadily dropped from 4.4 to 3.7 to 2.7. Also, the % of receptions going for 1st downs has dropped steadily from 65.4% to 62.7% to 51.2%.

He's an above average receiver, however, he seemed to cut off many of his routes short of where he should have been and then he was forced to rely on YAC to get the 1st down and it didn't work so well.
I wish Meyers had a little Edelman in him but that's not the case. Good CB's can take him away easily I think we can do a lot better than him. That said I think he could be a really good after thought in a Four WR one RB set.
 

PatsFan2

Pro Bowl Player
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I thought Wilkerson has been somewhat invisible in camp except for the last couple days where he made some great catches which IMO makes people think he is doing more then he actually is.
Been hearing a lot of Trey Nixon on St's would like to see his wiggle on a return. Edelman was pretty good there.
 

TheRainMaker

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That could also be because teams were running on the Pats in the second half of last year.
It would also be helpful to know who was he defending during that stretch as it certainly wasn’t the oppositions best. Also, didn’t they go more zone in the 2nd half of the year?

He can’t hide forever now that he’s there #1 CB.
 

DaBruinz

Pats, B's, Sox
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I wish Meyers had a little Edelman in him but that's not the case. Good CB's can take him away easily I think we can do a lot better than him. That said I think he could be a really good after thought in a Four WR one RB set.
I mentioned it before. I don't see Meyers as a "catalyst" type player. He just doesn't have the same energy as Edelman or even Bourne.

When Bourne hit the field, the energy just seemed to increase and there seemed to be really good plays happening.


The best analogy I have is going back to the US Olympic Rugby Team when Ebner played. In the very first game, the coach sat Ebner for the 1st half. The team was flat. It didn't have a lot of energy. There was no excitement. They didn't product. When they finally put Ebner is, he was like the Energizer Bunny. The change in the team was damn near tangible. He made positive things happen for the team.

That's how I see Bourne. He's that Catalyst type player. Very much like Edelman. They just make things happen on the field because of the different type of energy they bring.
 

PatsFan2

Pro Bowl Player
2019 Weekly Picks Winner
I mentioned it before. I don't see Meyers as a "catalyst" type player. He just doesn't have the same energy as Edelman or even Bourne.

When Bourne hit the field, the energy just seemed to increase and there seemed to be really good plays happening.


The best analogy I have is going back to the US Olympic Rugby Team when Ebner played. In the very first game, the coach sat Ebner for the 1st half. The team was flat. It didn't have a lot of energy. There was no excitement. They didn't product. When they finally put Ebner is, he was like the Energizer Bunny. The change in the team was damn near tangible. He made positive things happen for the team.

That's how I see Bourne. He's that Catalyst type player. Very much like Edelman. They just make things happen on the field because of the different type of energy they bring.
I agree I think there is much more to Bourne I think he's a swiss army knife type player.:cool:
 

Wozzy

In the Starting Line-Up
I thought Wilkerson has been somewhat invisible in camp except for the last couple days where he made some great catches which IMO makes people think he is doing more then he actually is.
From what I can recall he seems to rip off a big catch every day of camp, or most every day. I'd have to go back and count the tweets.
 

PatsFan2

Pro Bowl Player
2019 Weekly Picks Winner
From what I can recall he seems to rip off a big catch every day of camp, or most every day. I'd have to go back and count the tweets.
Seems like Kristian Wilkerson is running with the Two's can't wait to see him and Beatle Bailey Zappe.:cool:
 

Jim Beankie

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
PFR would disagree that Wilkerson didn't have a drop.
I remember that drop. I'm surprised it wasn't a penalty, but I guess hitting someone in the helmet like that is fairly legal? Tough break. Probably would've started over N'Keal the next week if he had caught this. The drop during last preseason was pretty terrible, though.

KW.gif
 

palialka

On the Roster
You gotta keep Bourne, Parker, Agholor, Thornton, and Meyers IMO. I think they probably carry Nixon too for 6. It's a lot of WRs, but Thornton is developing and Parker has durability concerns. Park Wilkerson on the PS and bring him up as/when necessary. Agholor will leave next year for a decent contract and Thornton will take over for him, and hopefully Nixon will be a bigger contributor. We'll see what happens with Meyers. Maybe he sticks around on a modest deal.
You read my mind :):thumbsup:
 

patfanken

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Question: it sounds as if the Pats are adding the "Shanahan" zone blocking offense to their current offense, rather than replacing it. This would allow them to do both in the same game, even the same offensive series.

What other teams can do this?

Poking @BaconGrundleCandy @patfanken and anyone else with that kind of expertise.

TIA
The kind of answer to fully explain your question would be REALLY long, even by my standards. So I'll quickly try by saying this.

REPETITIONS is the key word and its the key problem when adding ANYTHING new. So to add a different run scheme to the existing one means you could be splitting the repetitions. Now personally I'm fine with them changing their line blocking scheme if they have decided it best suits the players they have on their roster. SF has had great success running the ball in this system. IIRC it is the same system that Denver used during Tyrell Davis era. AND I'm willing to bear the inevitable "one step forward, two steps back" fits and starts such a change brings.

BUT if what they are doing is to try and marry the two systems into a hybrid zone/power blocking system I'd be REALLY interested in seeing how that might work. Of course we don't know what they are doing, but if they are making any kind of changes like what is being talked about, then all the worries about the offense we are hearing from the drama queens in the media AND here; is perfectly understandable.

BELIEVE me. At some point it WILL get better and keep getting better as the preseason and regular season progresses. For the last 3 seasons the Pats struggled in December and January, which is a 3 year anomaly when he had Decades of teams they always were better after Thanksgiving. THAT's my methodology to rate and define this team. ARE they getting better, And the fact is you cannot may ANY broad judgements about this team in the first week of October let alone the first week of August.

Remember the 2001 team was 5-5 before they went on a 9 game winning streak and a Title. MOST of the teams that followed were better after Thanksgiving, So as much as I'd like to get on my soap box and rail against the mediots who GLEEFULLY report every error they see at practices and the nervous nellly fans who fear the end has come; I'm more than willing to take the LONG view. I'll be very happy to see us a .500 at the end of October IF it looks like we are getting batter as the season goes on.

So if we look bad in preseason games, it won't make me happy, but I'm not going to go nuts. I'm am just going to look closely at the OL this preseason and I will need to see PROGRESS over time. We need to stop this need for IMMEDIATE gratification.to be satisfied. The football season is a MARATHON and not s sprint.
 

Sicilian

Pro Bowl Player
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
The kind of answer to fully explain your question would be REALLY long, even by my standards. So I'll quickly try by saying this.

REPETITIONS is the key word and its the key problem when adding ANYTHING new. So to add a different run scheme to the existing one means you could be splitting the repetitions. Now personally I'm fine with them changing their line blocking scheme if they have decided it best suits the players they have on their roster. SF has had great success running the ball in this system. IIRC it is the same system that Denver used during Tyrell Davis era. AND I'm willing to bear the inevitable "one step forward, two steps back" fits and starts such a change brings.

BUT if what they are doing is to try and marry the two systems into a hybrid zone/power blocking system I'd be REALLY interested in seeing how that might work. Of course we don't know what they are doing, but if they are making any kind of changes like what is being talked about, then all the worries about the offense we are hearing from the drama queens in the media AND here; is perfectly understandable.

BELIEVE me. At some point it WILL get better and keep getting better as the preseason and regular season progresses. For the last 3 seasons the Pats struggled in December and January, which is a 3 year anomaly when he had Decades of teams they always were better after Thanksgiving. THAT's my methodology to rate and define this team. ARE they getting better, And the fact is you cannot may ANY broad judgements about this team in the first week of October let alone the first week of August.

Remember the 2001 team was 5-5 before they went on a 9 game winning streak and a Title. MOST of the teams that followed were better after Thanksgiving, So as much as I'd like to get on my soap box and rail against the mediots who GLEEFULLY report every error they see at practices and the nervous nellly fans who fear the end has come; I'm more than willing to take the LONG view. I'll be very happy to see us a .500 at the end of October IF it looks like we are getting batter as the season goes on.

So if we look bad in preseason games, it won't make me happy, but I'm not going to go nuts. I'm am just going to look closely at the OL this preseason and I will need to see PROGRESS over time. We need to stop this need for IMMEDIATE gratification.to be satisfied. The football season is a MARATHON and not s sprint.

Always appreciate your coaching insights Ken. In your opinion, how much of learning this new system (apart from just drilling it over and over) is dependent upon the coaching staff teaching it? I've always been willing to give the new offensive coaching setup the benefit of the doubt. These are GOOD coaches, they're just being asked to do something a bit new to them. But how much of the Patriots success/failure implementing a zone blocking scheme will be dependent on Patricia/Judge teaching it? Or are these all concepts that these players basically know by the time they reach this level, and it's just a matter of reps as you said?
 

Lagaffe_07

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It's the season ticket holders practice tonight.
Which is not really a practice per say. They will review game day operation but I don’t think there will be much of football practice.

And is it right that they are off until Monday? I find that odd
 

Sicilian

Pro Bowl Player
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Which is not really a practice per say. They will review game day operation but I don’t think there will be much of football practice.

And is it right that they are off until Monday? I find that odd

I THINK they practice Sunday, but don't quote me on that.
 

TheRainMaker

Voted most handsome by my mother
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
We need preseason here. This is taking way too long. I need something to complain about and offend someone.
 

patfanken

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Always appreciate your coaching insights Ken. In your opinion, how much of learning this new system (apart from just drilling it over and over) is dependent upon the coaching staff teaching it? I've always been willing to give the new offensive coaching setup the benefit of the doubt. These are GOOD coaches, they're just being asked to do something a bit new to them. But how much of the Patriots success/failure implementing a zone blocking scheme will be dependent on Patricia/Judge teaching it? Or are these all concepts that these players basically know by the time they reach this level, and it's just a matter of reps as you said?
this is a good question, but one that is hard to know without being on the field and watching it happen. So everything that I say is merely an educated GUESS.

First I am comfortable with the Patricia/Yates running of the OL. Yates has been an OLman in the NFL and has been dong this for a while, and Patricia was an OLman right through college, and while coaching the DL and being a DC he KNOWS all the offensive line concepts and blocking schemes from those many years trying to defend them. AND you don't be around Dante for all those years and not pick up a LOT of good coaching points. So clearly he has enough knowledge and experience to coach our OL.

But the key to any good coaching is the ability to TEACH, and that goes for any level of football (or any sport for that matter). CAN you translate what you want the player to do so that they understand what they need to do, AND make them want to do it. That last point is key. I never wanted to have a kid run through a brick wall for me just because I said so. I felt it is equally important to explain WHY running through that wall was important. So if you can communicate details of what you need, AND motivate them with the understanding of WHY it needs to be done this way, then it is more than likely you are going to get the results you want on the field....eventually.

So if they are instituting a new blocking scheme or marrying something new to what they have already been doing, I'm less interested in the end result at this point. For the next few weeks, I'll be looking at the effort and even more importantly the "buy in" from the players. As teachers, I want to know HAVE the coaches communicated the importance of what they are doing AND the potential rewards of the change when they finally get it right,

Yates and Patricia have BOTH been coaching in the NFL for a while. I don't think they could have stayed in their positions as long as they have if they DIDN'T have the ability to communicate and motivate grown men. I hope that answers you question to some degree
 

zydecochris

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
this is a good question, but one that is hard to know without being on the field and watching it happen. So everything that I say is merely an educated GUESS.

First I am comfortable with the Patricia/Yates running of the OL. Yates has been an OLman in the NFL and has been dong this for a while, and Patricia was an OLman right through college, and while coaching the DL and being a DC he KNOWS all the offensive line concepts and blocking schemes from those many years trying to defend them. AND you don't be around Dante for all those years and not pick up a LOT of good coaching points. So clearly he has enough knowledge and experience to coach our OL.

But the key to any good coaching is the ability to TEACH, and that goes for any level of football (or any sport for that matter). CAN you translate what you want the player to do so that they understand what they need to do, AND make them want to do it. That last point is key. I never wanted to have a kid run through a brick wall for me just because I said so. I felt it is equally important to explain WHY running through that wall was important. So if you can communicate details of what you need, AND motivate them with the understanding of WHY it needs to be done this way, then it is more than likely you are going to get the results you want on the field....eventually.

So if they are instituting a new blocking scheme or marrying something new to what they have already been doing, I'm less interested in the end result at this point. For the next few weeks, I'll be looking at the effort and even more importantly the "buy in" from the players. As teachers, I want to know HAVE the coaches communicated the importance of what they are doing AND the potential rewards of the change when they finally get it right,

Yates and Patricia have BOTH been coaching in the NFL for a while. I don't think they could have stayed in their positions as long as they have if they DIDN'T have the ability to communicate and motivate grown men. I hope that answers you question to some degree
I heard something interesting on a Ringer NFL podcast on the Pats, they pointed out that Brady regularly met one-on-one for extended sessions with BB himself from the beginning, who (despite his unusual breath of all types football knowledge) is most famously known as a defensive football coach, and after a couple of years of that tutelage Brady became Brady. The thinking was that Brady (who admittedly had a genius level football IQ) was able to achieve his level of football mastery by having it explained by one of the best defensive football coaches ever, he learned the intricacies of offense by learning defense from BB. The speculation was that the Pats are trying to do something similar with Mac and Patricia (who primarily has a defensive background), and although it may be rough in the beginning (and maybe even for a good part of a year) it would be a positive thing for Mac's long term understanding of the offense by learning defense also. I'm not sure if I completely buy the theory or not, but I thought it was interesting.
 

DaBruinz

Pats, B's, Sox
PatsFans.com Supporter
I heard something interesting on a Ringer NFL podcast on the Pats, they pointed out that Brady regularly met one-on-one for extended sessions with BB himself from the beginning, who (despite his unusual breath of all types football knowledge) is most famously known as a defensive football coach, and after a couple of years of that tutelage Brady became Brady. The thinking was that Brady (who admittedly had a genius level football IQ) was able to achieve his level of football mastery by having it explained by one of the best defensive football coaches ever, he learned the intricacies of offense by learning defense from BB. The speculation was that the Pats are trying to do something similar with Mac and Patricia (who primarily has a defensive background), and although it may be rough in the beginning (and maybe even for a good part of a year) it would be a positive thing for Mac's long term understanding of the offense by learning defense also. I'm not sure if I completely buy the theory or not, but I thought it was interesting.

One of the things that people seem to gloss over is that the OFFENSIVE Playbook is one that BB created initially. It was over 4 inches thick. Yes, Weis, McDaniels and BO'B added to it, but it has always been BB's.

Now, how that may have changed for this year, who knows. I know there have been several players stating the book is simplified, but we have no idea what that actually means.
 

patfanken

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I heard something interesting on a Ringer NFL podcast on the Pats, they pointed out that Brady regularly met one-on-one for extended sessions with BB himself from the beginning, who (despite his unusual breath of all types football knowledge) is most famously known as a defensive football coach, and after a couple of years of that tutelage Brady became Brady. The thinking was that Brady (who admittedly had a genius level football IQ) was able to achieve his level of football mastery by having it explained by one of the best defensive football coaches ever, he learned the intricacies of offense by learning defense from BB. The speculation was that the Pats are trying to do something similar with Mac and Patricia (who primarily has a defensive background), and although it may be rough in the beginning (and maybe even for a good part of a year) it would be a positive thing for Mac's long term understanding of the offense by learning defense also. I'm not sure if I completely buy the theory or not, but I thought it was interesting.
to add to your point, few people remember that Bill was Brady's QB coach for his first 3 years. So yes Mac DOES have a guy he can go to that knows what he's doing and can help him get better.
 

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