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Patriots Training Camp- Thursday August 4th

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patfanken

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One of the things that people seem to gloss over is that the OFFENSIVE Playbook is one that BB created initially. It was over 4 inches thick. Yes, Weis, McDaniels and BO'B added to it, but it has always been BB's.

Now, how that may have changed for this year, who knows. I know there have been several players stating the book is simplified, but we have no idea what that actually means.
good point. I will tell you this NO ONE will have the true inside scoop on whatever changes they decide to make. Simplification can mean a lot of things. It can mean:

They have worked to change the semantics (Language) to be able to describe the play they want to run in fewer words, That is ALWAYS a work in progress for all coaches.

It can mean that they are cutting out plays that do ALMOST the same thing as another play, But we've seen in the past use adding plays in a Sunday walk through or even DURING the game.

I THINK the goal THIS year is to make sure everyone is executing correctly and on the same page on the offense and they are willing to sacrifice a little offensive flexibility for better execution and fewer mental mistakes, And remember this can all change if this team shows it can quickly absorb the offense can is prepared to do more. But at THIS point, I believe, it is all about getting it right physically and mentally. That means lining up in the right spots, make the right adjustments (motions, etc )and correctly execute their assignments That's the mental side and it needs constant coaching and REPETITIONS.

Again, It looks like they are going to be willing to trade some offensive flexibility to gain some better execution for the plays they have AND fewer mental mistakes. That is ALWAYS a battle for coaches trying to balance that issue, Give a coach a piece of paper with X's and O's on it and a pencil and they will ALWAYS be able to figure out a better way. And the farther up the ladder you go and the better players you have it becomes easier and easer to think you can solve any problem with a scheme.
 

PScottman

In the Starting Line-Up
He wrecked an 11-on-11 period on Thursday, shooting the right side A-Gap into the backfield for a tackle for loss. Godchaux has been unblockable at times in the run game.
Unfortunately I think this says more about the deficiency (or another slow start like last year) of the OL than a jump in capability of Godchaux. Solid journeyman DL - check. More than he was last year - highly debatable.
 

Zuma

BB Krishna
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Unfortunately I think this says more about the deficiency (or another slow start like last year) of the OL than a jump in capability of Godchaux. Solid journeyman DL - check. More than he was last year - highly debatable.
Oh yeah I agree...some of the reason the D-line is looking so good is because the O-line is still trying to figure some zone blocking stuff. It's one of the reason I hope they sign Flowers. But I do think God is better then he showed last year. We shall see.
 

DaBruinz

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Oh yeah I agree...some of the reason the D-line is looking so good is because the O-line is still trying to figure some zone blocking stuff. It's one of the reason I hope they sign Flowers. But I do think God is better then he showed last year. We shall see.
But that has nothing to do with the 1-on-1's that Godchaux's won.
 

Kdo5

Pro Bowl Player
Meyers disrespect is one of the weirder things on this forum. He was covered by the likes of AJ Terrell, Stephon Gilmore & Xavien Howard on 3rd down. Teams knew he was their main threat to move the chains & by all accounts he’s leading camp again in receptions.

He’s a good WR who would be more efficient with threats on the outside to get defenses out of cover 1. I’d be surprised if they moved him.
I definitely agree. If Meyers is your best receiver, that’s not a great sign about the strength of your passing game. But he is more than capable out there. I’ve seen so many guys through the years with more talent than Meyers who had plenty of opportunity, with less difficulty level in coverage who did absolutely squat.

Jakobi putting up two good seasons in a row, one with 80 catches is pretty darn good. He is a strong #3 option at wideout. I would like him here for the foreseeable future. Mac and Cam both relied on him.
 
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BTTA

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The kind of answer to fully explain your question would be REALLY long, even by my standards. So I'll quickly try by saying this.

REPETITIONS is the key word and its the key problem when adding ANYTHING new. So to add a different run scheme to the existing one means you could be splitting the repetitions. Now personally I'm fine with them changing their line blocking scheme if they have decided it best suits the players they have on their roster. SF has had great success running the ball in this system. IIRC it is the same system that Denver used during Tyrell Davis era. AND I'm willing to bear the inevitable "one step forward, two steps back" fits and starts such a change brings.

BUT if what they are doing is to try and marry the two systems into a hybrid zone/power blocking system I'd be REALLY interested in seeing how that might work. Of course we don't know what they are doing, but if they are making any kind of changes like what is being talked about, then all the worries about the offense we are hearing from the drama queens in the media AND here; is perfectly understandable.

BELIEVE me. At some point it WILL get better and keep getting better as the preseason and regular season progresses. For the last 3 seasons the Pats struggled in December and January, which is a 3 year anomaly when he had Decades of teams they always were better after Thanksgiving. THAT's my methodology to rate and define this team. ARE they getting better, And the fact is you cannot may ANY broad judgements about this team in the first week of October let alone the first week of August.

Remember the 2001 team was 5-5 before they went on a 9 game winning streak and a Title. MOST of the teams that followed were better after Thanksgiving, So as much as I'd like to get on my soap box and rail against the mediots who GLEEFULLY report every error they see at practices and the nervous nellly fans who fear the end has come; I'm more than willing to take the LONG view. I'll be very happy to see us a .500 at the end of October IF it looks like we are getting batter as the season goes on.

So if we look bad in preseason games, it won't make me happy, but I'm not going to go nuts. I'm am just going to look closely at the OL this preseason and I will need to see PROGRESS over time. We need to stop this need for IMMEDIATE gratification.to be satisfied. The football season is a MARATHON and not s sprint.

Ken, thanks much!
I'm left with the same question (maybe I didn't phrase it well). Let me try again.
It seems that the Pats are adding a different running blocking scheme to the one they already have. They aren't substituting/exchanging. They are keeping what they had and adding another.
I hadn't heard of teams doing this, but most likely because I just don't pay that kind of attention.
But don't most teams only use one blocking scheme?
Does having an offensive line that is good at both (assumption) give the Pats an unusual advantage in that regard? Can the game planning now emphasize one over the other because of the strengths of that week's opponent? Can the offensive play calling mix it up during a drive, based on what they are seeing from the defense, and/or what's working? Can Jones come to the line and switch from one to the other based on the defensive alignment?
Bottom line - is the coaching staff creating a huge advantage by having the team learn both? (While most of us, and most media, simply report on how it isn't in place yet, as if that's a surprise?)
TIA.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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Question: it sounds as if the Pats are adding the "Shanahan" zone blocking offense to their current offense, rather than replacing it. This would allow them to do both in the same game, even the same offensive series.

What other teams can do this?

Poking @BaconGrundleCandy @patfanken and anyone else with that kind of expertise.

TIA

Ken, thanks much!
I'm left with the same question (maybe I didn't phrase it well). Let me try again.
It seems that the Pats are adding a different running blocking scheme to the one they already have. They aren't substituting/exchanging. They are keeping what they had and adding another.
I hadn't heard of teams doing this, but most likely because I just don't pay that kind of attention.
But don't most teams only use one blocking scheme?
Does having an offensive line that is good at both (assumption) give the Pats an unusual advantage in that regard? Can the game planning now emphasize one over the other because of the strengths of that week's opponent? Can the offensive play calling mix it up during a drive, based on what they are seeing from the defense, and/or what's working? Can Jones come to the line and switch from one to the other based on the defensive alignment?
Bottom line - is the coaching staff creating a huge advantage by having the team learn both? (While most of us, and most media, simply report on how it isn't in place yet, as if that's a surprise?)
TIA.
I'll actually answer your question and let @patfanken bloviate for winners :) I love you Ken hope all is well in life and just as important. At the tables. You should join us playing at @Dingleberry balls Mucho Dinero Casino

Nitpicking a little. Just posted this article in my thread. Sounds like we're leaning more Mcvay than Shanahan BTTA.
It's not super indepth but decent.

I say Mcvay bc of the lack of FB. That's key and probably the biggest difference between him and Kyle. And we obviously got rid of ours. Mcvay likes an extra WR like Woods & Kupp (assuming Meyers takes that role here) and Kyle prefers a FB like Juice who can do different things. Again makes sense with our WR depth and lack of FB.

Shanahan is easily one of the best imo. He always makes it work. He can run anything. We've always had a versatile run game. About 40-50% gap/power. Credit to Mcvay he started using Kupp & Woods as lead blockers after Bill shut him down. They introduced and using windback variations that were very cool. Not many teams run windback anymore. They ran more power, duo. We run it (windback) on goal line. Tennessee runs it. SF. Cleveland has very nice run game.

OL makes all the difference in the world. Like you look at that group and say OK here's what we can do as opposed to your RB room. They're important but along for the ride unless they're game changers.

Sorry I've been busy with work and actually working now. I'll come back to this is I didn't answer all your questions. I probably didn't.
 

patfanken

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I'll actually answer your question and let @patfanken bloviate for winners :) I love you Ken hope all is well in life and just as important. At the tables. You should join us playing at @Dingleberry balls Mucho Dinero Casino

Nitpicking a little. Just posted this article in my thread. Sounds like we're leaning more Mcvay than Shanahan BTTA.
It's not super indepth but decent.

I say Mcvay bc of the lack of FB. That's key and probably the biggest difference between him and Kyle. And we obviously got rid of ours. Mcvay likes an extra WR like Woods & Kupp (assuming Meyers takes that role here) and Kyle prefers a FB like Juice who can do different things. Again makes sense with our WR depth and lack of FB.

Shanahan is easily one of the best imo. He always makes it work. He can run anything. We've always had a versatile run game. About 40-50% gap/power. Credit to Mcvay he started using Kupp & Woods as lead blockers after Bill shut him down. They introduced and using windback variations that were very cool. Not many teams run windback anymore. They ran more power, duo. We run it (windback) on goal line. Tennessee runs it. SF. Cleveland has very nice run game.

OL makes all the difference in the world. Like you look at that group and say OK here's what we can do as opposed to your RB room. They're important but along for the ride unless they're game changers.

Sorry I've been busy with work and actually working now. I'll come back to this is I didn't answer all your questions. I probably didn't.
Blovizte ???? BGC, really????

Well Kidos for the rest of you post anyways. It will be very interesting to see what they do with the changes they are making. But a couple of points

1. With Keen and Smith the Pats have 2 guys who can easily give them FB snaps and can catch the ball if they want to if having a FB would be effective against a certain defense

2. I'm on board with simplifying the passing offense. I've always been in favor of simplifying the receivers option reads in favor of better execution/. These are the things you can easily add as Mac progresses and his receiver room gets more familiar with him and the system. If you are going to change routes at the LOS, at least do it beofre the snap and leave it up to the QB to deal with it if the defense has gotten it righ
This way the QB is never fooled by one of his receivers.

3. I'm thiniking that if they actually put this together then this could be a top 10 offense again. Just one that plays its best football in December unlike last year. AND we have just over 4 full weeks to see the progression.
 

Zuma

BB Krishna
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1. With Keen and Smith the Pats have 2 guys who can easily give them FB snaps and can catch the ball if they want to if having a FB would be effective against a certain defense.
I agree with Keene…he was a good FB in college but he hasn’t shown much since drafted and not much in training camp. I’m not sure if Asiasi can lead block but he’s been more productive of the 2 this camp.
 

ashley1992

Moderator
Staff member
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I agree with Keene…he was a good FB in college but he hasn’t shown much since drafted and not much in training camp. I’m not sure if Asiasi can lead block but he’s been more productive of the 2 this camp.
At this point from what we've seen of Keene, I wouldn't expect much. Unfortunately, he just is unable to stay healthy.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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Blovizte ???? BGC, really????
I was just kidding lol. I thought you would like the Bill O'Reilly word of the day special, "bloviate"
Well Kidos for the rest of you post anyways. It will be very interesting to see what they do with the changes they are making. But a couple of points

1. With Keen and Smith the Pats have 2 guys who can easily give them FB snaps and can catch the ball if they want to if having a FB would be effective against a certain defense
I was a big fan of Keene coming out and have been a proponent for coaches to utilize undersized TEs at FB position bc of their rec skills and the space TE & FB share. He literally played all over including in the backfield in college. So he's not brand new to the position or potential transition. Him and Asiasi would be much welcomed help if they come through. We actually got lucky
2. I'm on board with simplifying the passing offense. I've always been in favor of simplifying the receivers option reads in favor of better execution/. These are the things you can easily add as Mac progresses and his receiver room gets more familiar with him and the system. If you are going to change routes at the LOS, at least do it beofre the snap and leave it up to the QB to deal with it if the defense has gotten it righ
This way the QB is never fooled by one of his receivers.
Agreed on a short term - bunch of new faces - moving parts but think post-snap sight adjustments, options can be critical in high leverage situations towards the end of games where you've seen a defenses hand. EP puts a ton on a QB's plate so I get wanting to take some of that pressure off him.
3. I'm thiniking that if they actually put this together then this could be a top 10 offense again. Just one that plays its best football in December unlike last year. AND we have just over 4 full weeks to see the progression.
I have high hopes but trying to stay grounded in terms of expectations.

Out rn I might go back to this but hope you know I was just joking.
 

patfanken

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I was just kidding lol. I thought you would like the Bill O'Reilly word of the day special, "bloviate"

Bloviate IS a great word and is not nearly used enough (aside from your context, of course) And Yes I knew you were kidding ;)
I was a big fan of Keene coming out and have been a proponent for coaches to utilize undersized TEs at FB position bc of their rec skills and the space TE & FB share. He literally played all over including in the backfield in college. So he's not brand new to the position or potential transition. Him and Asiasi would be much welcomed help if they come through. We actually got lucky
We shall see as camp goes on. I have always been a fan of the wing back. Both on the TE side as well as in the slot. It provides some interesting blocking opportunities as well as some unique passing routes, especially against man coverage.

BTW- I remember reading in one of Thornton's draft reviews that they viewed him as a plus blocker. Now I'm not saying wham him down on a DT, but he has the quickness and desire to stick with LB's on the 2nd level. That is a real plus for an offense. and leave the wham stuff to Keene and Smith. Also at wing back it would give Thornton and Bourne easier releases. Very cool to threaten the seem with such fast options. AND opens up short and deep crosses when the D has to respond.
Agreed on a short term - bunch of new faces - moving parts but think post-snap sight adjustments, options can be critical in high leverage situations towards the end of games where you've seen a defenses hand. EP puts a ton on a QB's plate so I get wanting to take some of that pressure off him.

I have high hopes but trying to stay grounded in terms of expectations.

Out rn I might go back to this but hope you know I was just joking.
Patience HAS to be the watchword for the offense. I don't want to have to dredge up old memes about 36-3 loses to Cinci in preseason and 31-0 loses in openers in superbowl years when the board goes mad and media stokes the fire. For me in August and September, I'm looking for 3 things. Are they playing hard, regardless of the score. Are mental errors at a minimum (Knowing their will always be SOME mental errors, but a lot less than when we seemed to have last season, when we HAD an OC btw) just sayin' And 3, are they getting better overall. IF that's what I see, the results will be the results.

The fourth thing I HOPE for will be that this team is the kind to win those close games. MOST NFL games are close contests where either team has an opportunity with win when the 4th quarter starts, The Pats have good at this the last 2 decades a LOT of teams like the Browns Chargers, Jets, Bears, etc, do not. EVERY team will line up with 53 GREAT football players. Players who have gone through an arduous and competitive gauntlet to be on the field on Sunday. So the margin of victory will be slim each week, and usually it is the team that makes the fewest mistakes in those final minutes that gets the W.

Like the 2001 team, it WAS not the most talented team that year, but it was the TOUGHEST, both nentaly AND physically.. We can have a good year this season if this team is like the 2001 (which was 5-5 before they started their run.
 

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