Patricia Vs Judge For Play Calling Duties?

[SHOWTIME15]

Can we agree that Josh McD is one of the better offensive play callers in the league? Do people forget that McDaniels started off coaching the DEFENSE from 2002 to 2003 before moving over to OBs coach and then OC? I'm guessing Judge is going through the same path - coach Mac this year and then next year become the official OC.

 

[All3Phases]

Can we agree that Josh McD is one of the better offensive play callers in the league? Do people forget that McDaniels started off coaching the DEFENSE from 2002 to 2003 before moving over to OBs coach and then OC? I'm guessing Judge is going through the same path - coach Mac this year and then next year become the official OC.

I dont think what he did for a year breaking into the league means hes ok calling defense, do you? Would you hire Josh McDaniels as a DC because he coached it 20 years ago for a year? He made his bones as an offensive mind, just like Patricia on the defensive end. As for Judge, totally possible, I think the issue comes into play with the lack of experience with now Judge/Patricia and the inexperience of the QB they are trying to mold. In your example, I think it helped that Josh landed on his feet coaching Brady, who was an established superstar QB at the time. Right now they dont have a ton of experience on the offensive side of the ball

 

[SHOWTIME15]

I dont think what he did for a year breaking into the league means hes ok calling defense, do you? Would you hire Josh McDaniels as a DC because he coached it 20 years ago for a year? He made his bones as an offensive mind, just like Patricia on the defensive end. As for Judge, totally possible, I think the issue comes into play with the lack of experience with now Judge/Patricia and the inexperience of the QB they are trying to mold. In your example, I think it helped that Josh landed on his feet coaching Brady, who was an established superstar QB at the time. Right now they dont have a ton of experience on the offensive side of the ball

Well, in 2003 it was Charlie Weis who was doing the playcalling and Josh was his assistant. This year it's going to be Judge calling the plays (presumably) and he's being thrust into an offensive coaching role for the first time without any mentor on staff. He's only coached on defense or special teams to date. It'll be interesting to see where this goes. I think Judge has a great football mind - I saw him breakdown film for NYG fans periodically and was pretty impressed. It didn't translate on the field, primarily because their GM didn't give him an offensive line or QB to work with. YOu just think back what the Giants would have become had they drafted Josh Allen instead of Saquon Barkley or Herbert over Andrew Thomas.

 

[All3Phases]

Well, in 2003 it was Charlie Weis who was doing the playcalling and Josh was his assistant. This year it's going to be Judge calling the plays (presumably) and he's being thrust into an offensive coaching role for the first time without any mentor on staff. He's only coached on defense or special teams to date. It'll be interesting to see where this goes. I think Judge has a great football mind - I saw him breakdown film for NYG fans periodically and was pretty impressed. It didn't translate on the field, primarily because their GM didn't give him an offensive line or QB to work with. YOu just think back what the Giants would have become had they drafted Josh Allen instead of Saquon Barkley or Herbert over Andrew Thomas.

Right, and when Josh Took over, there was an established Superstar QB there...Whos had a much experience and coaching as possible up to that point. This situation is much different, Theres limited experience at QB, along with almost none on the offensive side of the ball between Patricia and Judge. Again, it might work out, but I think its fair to say...Hey this is definitely a little different and could certainly cause some issues.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

This might deserve it's own thread pretty soon.

"New England could incorporate more spread elements, better spacing and vertical passing schemes, two-tight end sets a la O’Brien in 2010-11, and marry their current power run schemes with Alabama’s RPO and motion designs. "

No fullback already suggests a considerable shift in scheme. The roster now has two very speedy WRs, a very speedy new RB and a potentially strong TE group.

So likely we are moving on from McDaniel's hyper-complex playbook originally designed for Brady that meant we could never develop rookie receivers. No more condensed formations with a FB running against packed boxes with no room to throw underneath. Instead we will become a YAC-based offense. Smith has the best YAC among TEs, and Mac throws a catchable ball that allows the receiver to catch the ball in stride.

 

[venecol]

I think the only fair way for Bill to select the OC between Fat Matt and Judge is through competition:

1. Athletic Event: Bill has them race up the hill, 1st one wins. Fat Matt forfeits, giving Judge the initial lead.

2. Timing Event: Bill has them eat as many hot dogs in 10 minutes. Judge forfeits, making it all even.

3. Smarts Event: Bill has them make jokes in front of the entire team, one w/ most laughs wins. Outcome of this battle of wits is unknown.

Seems both fair and entertaining.

 

[patfanken]

Yeah this a joke that is destined to backfire... both of these clowns fluked out badly as head coaches. Neither seemingly brings anything of value to the Patriots coaching staff as offensive assistants or play-callers. The Lions offense was putrid under Patricia. The Giants offense was worse than putrid under Judge. Guaranteed that Daboll will get much better results from Daniel Jones. I wonder what the Krafts think of this? Surprising they would allow such blatantly irresponsible decision making.

This is the easy answer. Both Patricia AND Judge failed miserably as HC's. But that has NO correlation to how they will be assistant coaches, The fact is that they WERE both excellent assistant coaches or they wouldn't have gotten an opportunity to be HC's in the first place.

But here's the thing that I think most fans aren't getting. Patricia time as a DC and on the defensive side of the ball, actually has prepared him for work on the offensive side of the ball. As a DC you HAVE to be well versed on offensive concepts of ALL the varied offenses that you may encounter. It's not like he isn't familiar with the Pats offense and offensive strategy. So I have ZERO worries about Patricia's transition to coach the OL (where his played in college) and coached briefly early in his Pats career.

Judge's history is more problematic as the excellent job he did as ST's coordinator doesn't necessarily translates to EITHER offense or defense. HOWEVER we don't no about what other offensive ties he had to the offense other than the year he also worked with the WR's. He clearly was involved with the offense while he was with the Giants. So at worst he's had 3 years experience dealing with the offensive side of the ball and a possible 8 more while he was with the Pats working with St's. Given that ST's isn't an all encompassing full time job, I can only assume he was doing something involved with the offense during those times.

So I don't think that Judge/Patiricia/Yates/Brown/Calley etc offensive staff is incongruent at all. I believe the offense will be well coached. However the job of offensive play caller will no be revealed publicly just as the job of defensive play caller has been over the last few years. Its a question that will be asked a million times over the next few month....and not answered.

But who cares. Only the results on the field matters.

 

[Hyped]

1) Me too.
2) I reserve the right to joke about his weight, even with my physique.
3) I doubt that Matt's parents were happy but it turned out to be a great decision.
4) If a coach is successful it's because of the players.
5) The Goodell clown shirt (I usually wear it while cutting the grass) made him one of my favorites.
6) Judge also needs players, just like Patricia.
7) It seems like the strategy is to not let anyone know who's calling the plays.
8) My favorite example of that was when The Butler Did it and Bill let everyone know that "I've got this."
9) Of course it helps to have a great HC but it's better to have great players IMHO.

As for #7, I don't think it's a strategical advantage to not disclose the play caller. I genuinely think that they haven't decided on that yet and really...they will not need to do so until preseason week 1 anyway. Prior to that, it will only be a mandatory mini-camp....practices...joint practices....none of which include head sets....I don't see wires and headsets at practices. But the first pre-season game....we need a play caller to relay over the head sets...it may just be that Patricia may prefer to remain on the field...and Judge might be OK with going upstairs. McDaniels always stayed on the field....unlike many other OC's upstairs in the NFL. If it were a strategical advantage, it would be better to disclose someone....then use someone else on game day.....just to force other teams to employ 2-3 lip readers or something....

And last, but not least....we agree...players > coaches...which is all that matters at the end of the day.

 

[Clonamery]

Joe Judge is pissed.

 

[203Pat]

I don't know how you can pretend not to be concerned as a fan. Patricia is a defensive minded head coach who has never called plays for an offense before. He took over the Lions and turned a team that was in playoff contention each year under the previous coach and won 13 games in almost 3 seasons. The year prior (2017) to Patrica taking over the Lions offensive ranking was 7 and dropped to 25 his first year. He also seemed to pretty much universally disliked by the fans, media, and players and a QB he couldn't even go .500 with won the Super Bowl 5 minutes after getting away from him.

 

[Sam Bam Cunningham]

Huge over reaction. Patricia is perfectly capable of calling plays. McDaniels being positioned as some kind of modern day Einstein is hilarious. Patricia is probably 25 times smarter than Mcdummie and will be fine.

 

[203Pat]

Huge over reaction. Patricia is perfectly capable of calling plays. McDaniels being positioned as some kind of modern day Einstein is hilarious. Patricia is probably 25 times smarter than Mcdummie and will be fine.

Based on what? The fact he has never called a single offensive play in his NFL career?

 

[SlowGettingUp]

He took over the Lions and turned a team that was in playoff contention each year under the previous coach and won 13 games in almost 3 seasons.

It's easy to blame the HC when things go bad - that's why they get fired a lot. But there are a lot of things that go into making a football team good or bad.

If you step back a bit, we need a new OC, and that person surely has to be from the Belichick/Patriots coaching tree - you do not want a wholesale change in the system with a second-year QB. It's also the case that we have had terrible trouble developing WRs, and some of that has to be down to the hyper-complex scheme developed over a decade with Brady. So you want someone who is very familiar with the system but not wedded to the full complexity. So who do you suggest that should be? Bill O'Brien decided not to come here, and Patricia has way more experience than Judge, who was basically a Special Teams coach.

Patricia is super-smart, but his attempts to impose "the Patriots Way" on the Lions did not go well (sounds familiar - McDaniels his first time as head coach also went similarly badly).

This is a good description of what went wrong

(link doesn't want to post for some reason so copy and remove the space)

WHEN THE PATRIOT WAY GOES WRONG​

Matt Patricia brought a demanding, domineering approach to Detroit, and the Lions have been losing ever since.

https: //bleacherreport.com/articles/2917777

 

[Sam Bam Cunningham]

Based on what? The fact he has never called a single offensive play in his NFL career?

So what? Its not rocket science. If you know defenses you can call offensive plays

McDaniels did it. That proves you do not have to be a genius.

I am much more concerned with the lack of talent at key positions

 

[203Pat]

It's easy to blame the HC when things go bad - that's why they get fired a lot. But there are a lot of things that go into making a football team good or bad.

If you step back a bit, we need a new OC, and that person surely has to be from the Belichick/Patriots coaching tree - you do not want a wholesale change in the system with a second-year QB. It's also the case that we have had terrible trouble developing WRs, and some of that has to be down to the hyper-complex scheme developed over a decade with Brady. So you want someone who is very familiar with the system but not wedded to the full complexity. So who do you suggest that should be? Bill O'Brien decided not to come here, and Patricia has way more experience than Judge, who was basically a Special Teams coach.

Patricia is super-smart, but his attempts to impose "the Patriots Way" on the Lions did not go well (sounds familiar - McDaniels his first time as head coach also went similarly badly).

This is a good description of what went wrong

(link doesn't want to post for some reason so copy and remove the space)

WHEN THE PATRIOT WAY GOES WRONG​

https: //bleacherreport.com/articles/2917777

There were reports that Bill didn't want to "poach" Bill O'Brien from Saban and damage their relationship. I know BB always says he will do what's in the best interest of the team but sometimes that seems to mean do what's in the best interest of Bill Belichick. O'Brien should have been given the job if he wanted it but this seemed to fall into the "trade Jimmy G to my friend's kid for less than what the team that fired me has to offer" category. I also think that Bill didn't have a good backup plan. Every year for how many years now has Josh's name been bandied about for a head coach job and yet there still didn't seem to be anyone being groomed for the role?

 

[203Pat]

So what? Its not rocket science. If you know defenses you can call offensive plays

McDaniels did it. That proves you do not have to be a genius.

I am much more concerned with the lack of talent at key positions

So then by your logic every defensive coordinator should be able to switch roles and call plays for the offense? That is asinine. Defense is calling plays based on what the offensive is doing or presumed to be doing. Offensive is proactive while defense is reactive. Thinking that a defensive coordinator and failed head coach is going to seamlessly transition into a successful offensive play caller with a second year QB is burying your head in the sand.

 

[venecol]

If Fat Matt's D was known as "bend but don't break," what's the O version of that? Straighten but break?

 

[Zuma]

bend but don't break

You know that's a huge part of BB's philosophy...right ?

 

[Clonamery]

You know that's a huge part of BB's philosophy...right ?

Rocket Science?

 

[203Pat]

I was kind of surprised Chad O'Shea didn't get any consideration for OC. He knows the offense and got fired by Flores after one season because Flores thought the playbook was too complicated.