Patricia Vs Judge For Play Calling Duties?

[Kdo5]

Out of those two dreadful choices, Patricia would be the clear choice. He was a relatively successful coordinator before, it stands to reason that he could be competent but I have a lot of doubt.

The drop off from Josh to these clowns is very steep. Worrying for Mac’s development.

 

[Lavictoire]

Wouldn't a defensive coordinator be well versed in offensive plays as he has to "defend" them. He might have a unique perspective.

 

[upstater1]

"New England could incorporate more spread elements, better spacing and vertical passing schemes, two-tight end sets a la O’Brien in 2010-11, and marry their current power run schemes with Alabama’s RPO and motion designs. "

No fullback already suggests a considerable shift in scheme. The roster now has two very speedy WRs, a very speedy new RB and a potentially strong TE group.

So likely we are moving on from McDaniel's hyper-complex playbook originally designed for Brady that meant we could never develop rookie receivers. No more condensed formations with a FB running against packed boxes with no room to throw underneath. Instead we will become a YAC-based offense. Smith has the best YAC among TEs, and Mac throws a catchable ball that allows the receiver to catch the ball in stride.

I have a hard time buying several f these assumptions. First, this offense has worked before for people like Cassel, and even Garoppolo did decently with it. I think the Patriots offense is a pretty smart one in that it does the most basic thing and offense should do, take advantage of open space.

As for Brady and rookies, he didn't work well with bad ones. You know, the guys who went to other teams and... did nothing. But he did work well with good ones. And with new guys with the Bucs. So... I blame scouting not our offense, not our QB

 

[Ring 6]

I was kind of surprised Chad O'Shea didn't get any consideration for OC. He knows the offense and got fired by Flores after one season because Flores thought the playbook was too complicated.

Didn’t you answer your own question? Why would we take a guy we didn’t want to promote, watch him get promoted and fail elsewhere, then promote him?

 

[Ring 6]

If Fat Matt's D was known as "bend but don't break," what's the O version of that? Straighten but break?

No defense is designed as bend but don’t break. It’s not a philosophy it’s a result.
Bend but don’t break is a defense that isn’t great between the 20s but is excellent in the red zone.
No team has ever decided that they want to create a scheme that lets an offense into the red zone so they can stop them.

The offensive equivalent would be an offense that doesn’t move the ball consistently but is great at finishing in the red zone.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

As for Brady and rookies, he didn't work well with bad ones. You know, the guys who went to other teams and... did nothing. But he did work well with good ones. And with new guys with the Bucs. So... I blame scouting not our offense, not our QB

But there have also been several cases of receivers that did well with previous teams and came here and could never get comfortable with the playbook. All the fancy option routes mean that the QB and receiver have to see things exactly the same way for them to be effective.

I'm not suggesting we are throwing out the old playbook - just some simplifications and additions targeted to who we now have on the roster and coaching staff. No FB is an announced change already, and there are certainly hints of more. They drafted the fastest WR and the fastest RB and the most athletic guard.

 

[Ring 6]

"New England could incorporate more spread elements, better spacing and vertical passing schemes, two-tight end sets a la O’Brien in 2010-11, and marry their current power run schemes with Alabama’s RPO and motion designs. "

No fullback already suggests a considerable shift in scheme. The roster now has two very speedy WRs, a very speedy new RB and a potentially strong TE group.

So likely we are moving on from McDaniel's hyper-complex playbook originally designed for Brady that meant we could never develop rookie receivers. No more condensed formations with a FB running against packed boxes with no room to throw underneath. Instead we will become a YAC-based offense. Smith has the best YAC among TEs, and Mac throws a catchable ball that allows the receiver to catch the ball in stride.

We aren’t moving on from anything.
We have developed an offensive scheme over the past 20 years that encompasses virtually anything any offense does but tweaks its implementation each year to fit the personnel.
For example the part of the scheme that utilized a FB will still be there, but it will either be used with a TE or Hback filling the FB duty, or using an OL or defensive player. We didn’t have a different offense when Gronk and the murderer made the 2 TE offense a staple, we just used that part of the playbook more. We have used zone running schemes for many years, the proportion changes with personnel and how Belichick tweaks the scheme for that year. We ran the same offense before and after Moss but while he was here we took greater advantage of the deep passing elements. If you look back at all of the receivers that have come through the system, each were to used to their strengths. We didn’t run a different offense, we called different packages of plays.
In fact many times we change from week to week. In 2002 when Brady threw like 25 of the first 27 plays vs Pittsburgh, it wasn’t a different offense it was a different game plan. When he ran over the Colts with Blount it was the same offense that we threw almost every down vs strong run Ds.

It’s all coming from Belichick. Since Belichick has been here, the offense has finished worse than 12th twice (2000 and cam Newton) has finished top 10 19 of 22 years and top 6 14 of 22, including last year with a rookie QB.

 

[Ring 6]

But there have also been several cases of receivers that did well with previous teams and came here and could never get comfortable with the playbook. All the fancy option routes mean that the QB and receiver have to see things exactly the same way for them to be effective.

I'm not suggesting we are throwing out the old playbook - just some simplifications and additions targeted to who we now have on the roster and coaching staff. No FB is an announced change already, and there are certainly hints of more. They drafted the fastest WR and the fastest RB and the most athletic guard.

In most cases it was because they were over the hill. I don’t recall any that came here, struggled then went in to do well elsewhere.

 

[Sam Bam Cunningham]

So then by your logic every defensive coordinator should be able to switch roles and call plays for the offense? That is asinine. Defense is calling plays based on what the offensive is doing or presumed to be doing. Offensive is proactive while defense is reactive. Thinking that a defensive coordinator and failed head coach is going to seamlessly transition into a successful offensive play caller with a second year QB is burying your head in the sand.

Most of them could absolutely, if given the chance

 

[SlowGettingUp]

In most cases it was because they were over the hill. I don’t recall any that came here, struggled then went in to do well elsewhere.

If you truly flame out here it's hard to get another shot. The really good receivers (Welker, Cooks) that left here did well elsewhere too.
But there were certainly some star receivers that were thought to have something left in the tank that did really badly here because they couldn't grasp the playbook (Chad for one). And everyone says the playbook is really hard and a long way from the College game, so that does provide at least a partial explanation for all their misses in the draft.

 

[Ring 6]

If you truly flame out here it's hard to get another shot. The really good receivers (Welker, Cooks) that left here did well elsewhere too.
But there were certainly some star receivers that were thought to have something left in the tank that did really badly here because they couldn't grasp the playbook (Chad for one). And everyone says the playbook is really hard and a long way from the College game, so that does provide at least a partial explanation for all their misses in the draft.

If they failed because of the system they would have gone on to succeed elsewhere. If you were “thought to have something in the tank” and failed here then never succeeded afterward, the thought was wrong.
Do you have any examples of players who came here failed and then went on to show it was because of the system by succeeding elsewhere?

 

[Patsgofor4]

Huge over reaction. Patricia is perfectly capable of calling plays. McDaniels being positioned as some kind of modern day Einstein is hilarious. Patricia is probably 25 times smarter than Mcdummie and will be fine.

McDaniels first two years on the coaching staff, in 2002 and 2003 were spent as a DEFENSIVE assistant, working with the DBs his second year. In 2004, he transitioned to quarterbacks coach and by 2005, after Weiss left for Notre Dame, he was calling the plays. It was only 1999 when he started his coaching career, as a low level assistant at Michigan State.

I trust that BB is not going to put someone in charge of calling plays who can’t handle the job. He was right that Weiss, McDaniels and O’Brien were ready, so why would Belichick give the playcalling keys to Patricia (or Judge) if he did not feel that he was ready? Are there actually people here who are so dumb that they don’t believe that Bill knows that this is a critical year in Mac’s development?

I am by no means 100% convinced that Patricia is the man for the job but I am willing to wait to see how the offense runs, if he is ultimately chosen to be the primary play caller, before forming an opinion. To do otherwise seems very foolish.

By all accounts, Patricia is a very bright guy and it is indisputable that his coaching background at the NFL level is far more extensive than McDaniels was before he started calling plays in 2005. In theory, he should be far more prepared than McDaniels was.

 

[captain stone]

There were reports that Bill didn't want to "poach" Bill O'Brien from Saban and damage their relationship. I know BB always says he will do what's in the best interest of the team but sometimes that seems to mean do what's in the best interest of Bill Belichick. O'Brien should have been given the job if he wanted it but this seemed to fall into the "trade Jimmy G to my friend's kid for less than what the team that fired me has to offer" category. I also think that Bill didn't have a good backup plan. Every year for how many years now has Josh's name been bandied about for a head coach job and yet there still didn't seem to be anyone being groomed for the role?

To be fair, some of those possibly being groomed as the next OC (Daboll, e.g.) were also poached before they had a chance here...

But yeah, the talent dry-up has also been true on the coaching pipeline as well as the player pipeline.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

Do you have any examples of players who came here failed and then went on to show it was because of the system by succeeding elsewhere?

No, but then failing someplace at WR and then going on to succeed elsewhere is unusual. Can you cite any such players from any team? There are plenty of examples of good players that get dissatisfied and move on and succeed elsewhere of course, but I'm asking for examples of players that started out doing badly and then go on to great success.

 

[All3Phases]

McDaniels first two years on the coaching staff, in 2002 and 2003 were spent as a DEFENSIVE assistant, working with the DBs his second year. In 2004, he transitioned to quarterbacks coach and by 2005, after Weiss left for Notre Dame, he was calling the plays. It was only 1999 when he started his coaching career, as a low level assistant at Michigan State.

I trust that BB is not going to put someone in charge of calling plays who can’t handle the job. He was right that Weiss, McDaniels and O’Brien were ready, so why would Belichick give the playcalling keys to Patricia (or Judge) if he did not feel that he was ready? Are there actually people here who are so dumb that they don’t believe that Bill knows that this is a critical year in Mac’s development?

I am by no means 100% convinced that Patricia is the man for the job but I am willing to wait to see how the office runs if he is ultimately chosen to be the primary play caller, before forming an opinion. To do otherwise seems very foolish.

By all accounts, Patricia is a very bright guy and it is indisputable that his coaching background at the NFL level is far more extensive than McDaniels was before he started calling plays in 2005. In theory, he should be far more prepared than McDaniels was.

The glaring difference is the caliber of quarterback/experience they have in the league and system at their disposal. McDaniels was a quarterbacks coach before calling plays, but also took over with the best quarterback in the league. Who has proven can work with any offensive coordinator in the league. Patricia has 0 experience and will be working in tandem with a quarterback who also is limited in experience and is still very early in his development. It’s definitely something that could make fans second guess

 

[Greg]

Right of wrong, Bellichick believe in these two people. It should be interesting. If ****s goes off the rails, I could see us going after BOB during the year.

 

[upstater1]

But there have also been several cases of receivers that did well with previous teams and came here and could never get comfortable with the playbook. All the fancy option routes mean that the QB and receiver have to see things exactly the same way for them to be effective.

I'm not suggesting we are throwing out the old playbook - just some simplifications and additions targeted to who we now have on the roster and coaching staff. No FB is an announced change already, and there are certainly hints of more. They drafted the fastest WR and the fastest RB and the most athletic guard.

And all of these guys went elsewhere and did nothing, or retired. Galloway, Wayne, Ochocinco, these were all end of the road players. I don't know of any Patriots WRs who came to the Patriots and then had more success elsewhere.

I do know plenty of them though that did well with the Patriots, and not very well when they left, like Hogan and Givens.

Do we have a single example of a WR who did better elsewhere?

 

[venecol]

And all of these guys went elsewhere and did nothing, or retired. Galloway, Wayne, Ochocinco, these were all end of the road players. I don't know of any Patriots WRs who came to the Patriots and then had more success elsewhere.

I do know plenty of them though that did well with the Patriots, and not very well when they left, like Hogan and Givens.

Do we have a single example of a WR who did better elsewhere?

AB, kept his nose clean in 2020 & won a SB.

 

[203Pat]

Didn’t you answer your own question? Why would we take a guy we didn’t want to promote, watch him get promoted and fail elsewhere, then promote him?

So we were going to promote him over Josh when they were both here? He also didn't "fail". Flores fired him because he said the offense was too complicated for his young team.

 

[203Pat]

Most of them could absolutely, if given the chance

That must be why it happens all the time. Oh wait...