OT: Revis wants 20M per year...

[Kontradiction]

I think that we need to look a little beyond the coverage discussion. We need to look at overall scheme. The Rex Ryan D is based on blitzing. When you send an extra rusher, you lose your personel advantage. Generally speaking, this means you have to play man. Further, pressure is used in conjunction with press. So, let's assume Revis played man in the majority of the snaps.

Now, let's consider overall scheme. Against the Jets, the ball must come out quickly. The ball must also come towards the areas that are vacated by the blitzing players. Logically, this is between the hashes. So we now have it narrowed down on the gameplay front. When one plays the Jets, the focus of the passing game is on the hots to the vacated areas. Further, the Y should have a physical mismatch on whatever player he is manned up on. Outside receivers aren't quick hits unless we're talking hitches or bubble screens. Both of which are unproductive against press. Basically, the flanker and split end are going to be significantly less crucial in advancing the ball against the Jets than they normally would be. This, obviously will give Revis a statistical advantage over every other corner. So the one thing we have left is the eye test.

The eye test still tells me that Revis is as good as anyone I have ever seen at his position, regardless of scheme. While he did have schematic help, he still has had two extremely good years at the position. Given his age, ability, and current market he should become the highest compensated corner in history of the game.

:yeahthat::agree::ditto:

Insight like this is the reason why my show is going to look like a turd compared to both of your's.

 

[eom]

Given his [Revis] age, ability, and current market he should become the highest compensated corner in history of the game.

significantly higher than this?:

2/19/2009: Signed a three-year, $45.3 million contract. The first two years, totaling $28.6 million, are fully guaranteed. Another $4.7 million is available through incentives. To keep Asomugha through 2011, the Raiders must pay him either the franchise number for quarterbacks that year OR $16.875 million, whichever number is greater. If the club fails to exercise the option, Asomugha cannot be franchise tagged and will become an unrestricted free agent. 2010: $755,000 (+ $8 million roster bonus due 3/5 + $7.83 million option bonus due 3/19), 2011: $2.105 million (Club Option),

 

[Tunescribe]

Between Revis' demands and Jabba Wrecks' contractual buffet stipend, that team will go bankrupt sooner than later.

 

[eom]

I think that we need to look a little beyond the coverage discussion. We need to look at overall scheme. The Rex Ryan D is based on blitzing. When you send an extra rusher, you lose your personel advantage. Generally speaking, this means you have to play man. Further, pressure is used in conjunction with press. So, let's assume Revis played man in the majority of the snaps.

Now, let's consider overall scheme. Against the Jets, the ball must come out quickly. The ball must also come towards the areas that are vacated by the blitzing players. Logically, this is between the hashes. So we now have it narrowed down on the gameplay front. When one plays the Jets, the focus of the passing game is on the hots to the vacated areas. Further, the Y should have a physical mismatch on whatever player he is manned up on. Outside receivers aren't quick hits unless we're talking hitches or bubble screens. Both of which are unproductive against press. Basically, the flanker and split end are going to be significantly less crucial in advancing the ball against the Jets than they normally would be. This, obviously will give Revis a statistical advantage over every other corner.

I agree with you somewhat, and I REALLY don't want to get *****slapped down on this, but to be fair about it:

thrown at:
#1 - DRC (120)
#2 - Cox (112)
#3 - Revis (111)

 

[emoney_33]

Just to clarify, as some have been arguing seemingly under the impression that Asomugha plays LCB, he's been playing RCB the past few years. I'd love to see Asomugha play for a real team rather than the black hole.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: OT: Revis wants 20M per year....

Our coach has a very intersting opinion when it comes to stats. Statistical analysis is important in a discussion like this, but it is hardly the know-all, end-all in any sport. Terrell Owens, Steve Smith, Marques Colston, and Roddy White are extremely talented receivers who have given opposing CB's fits in their time in the league. Andre Johnson, Reggie Wayne, and Randy Moss fall into the same category as those four and had impressive seasons. Despite any down seasons, it's pretty widely recognized that Revis faced a tough line-up.

I guess I'll just drop it because to tell me that Steve Smith and Terrell Owens WHEN THEY ARENT PRODUCING HIGHLY AGAINST PRETTY MUCH ANYONE, whether it because of them or their QB are tough competition is just something I don't buy.
Yes, you can name some tough WRs that he faced, but you can do that with any corner in the league.
It seems like you are looking at this in a vaccuum and saying wow thats quite a list, without looking at how that list compares to the league in general. Its an average level of competition that each NFL team faced, its not like he faced every great offense and no bad ones, in fact he faced some of the worst.
Didnt Miami or Buffalo or the Patriots corners face about the same thing? I mean you are reaching to guys who were below average out of all the #1 WRs and calling them tough competition. It makes no sense to me.
If 10 or 11 of the games were against weak passing teams (with the guys on the field) how can it be one of the tougher schedules in the league that year much less in a number of years?

 

[Ring 6]

I think that we need to look a little beyond the coverage discussion. We need to look at overall scheme. The Rex Ryan D is based on blitzing. When you send an extra rusher, you lose your personel advantage. Generally speaking, this means you have to play man. Further, pressure is used in conjunction with press. So, let's assume Revis played man in the majority of the snaps.

Now, let's consider overall scheme. Against the Jets, the ball must come out quickly. The ball must also come towards the areas that are vacated by the blitzing players. Logically, this is between the hashes. So we now have it narrowed down on the gameplay front. When one plays the Jets, the focus of the passing game is on the hots to the vacated areas. Further, the Y should have a physical mismatch on whatever player he is manned up on. Outside receivers aren't quick hits unless we're talking hitches or bubble screens. Both of which are unproductive against press. Basically, the flanker and split end are going to be significantly less crucial in advancing the ball against the Jets than they normally would be. This, obviously will give Revis a statistical advantage over every other corner. So the one thing we have left is the eye test.

The eye test still tells me that Revis is as good as anyone I have ever seen at his position, regardless of scheme. While he did have schematic help, he still has had two extremely good years at the position. Given his age, ability, and current market he should become the highest compensated corner in history of the game.

I think you are overestimating the impact of the scheme.
I don't have stats, but I know its not a case of 50 blitzes for the Jets vs 5 for other teams.
Yes, they like to blitz, but the assumption that he is man coverage "The majority of the snaps" is flawed, IMO. The majority of the snaps on passing downs, maybe but overall seems way too much.
But, I'm sure the stats are available for how many of the pass plays vs the Jets were vs blitz or not, and how different that is from the league average. Of course you can play zone behind blitz, and man behind no blitz but I think those stats would be pretty close to accurate.

Otherwise I agree with your post, I just think that the idea that the Jets blitz 50 times a game while widespread is not accurate.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: OT: Revis wants 20M per year....

I guess I'll just drop it because to tell me that Steve Smith and Terrell Owens WHEN THEY ARENT PRODUCING HIGHLY AGAINST PRETTY MUCH ANYONE, whether it because of them or their QB are tough competition is just something I don't buy.
Yes, you can name some tough WRs that he faced, but you can do that with any corner in the league.
It seems like you are looking at this in a vaccuum and saying wow thats quite a list, without looking at how that list compares to the league in general. Its an average level of competition that each NFL team faced, its not like he faced every great offense and no bad ones, in fact he faced some of the worst.
Didnt Miami or Buffalo or the Patriots corners face about the same thing? I mean you are reaching to guys who were below average out of all the #1 WRs and calling them tough competition. It makes no sense to me.
If 10 or 11 of the games were against weak passing teams (with the guys on the field) how can it be one of the tougher schedules in the league that year much less in a number of years?

Who else are we going to look at with similar production to Revis? You even admitted yourself that we can't be sure how much Nmandi faced true #1 WR's on the opposing team. He's the only one remotely in Revis' class as of right now. And the point is not that he simply just FACED tough competition, but that he completely shut them down. This is the meat of my argument. We can be sure how much Revis went one on one against the opposition's #1 WR. We cannot do the same with Nmandi. There are only two conclusions: the first is that an argument cannot be made in Nmandi's favor. The second is a landslide victory in Revis' favor.

As for Steve Smith and T.O., you're free to believe that they aren't good receivers anymore if you so wish. I have a feeling that a great many corners in the league would be inclined to disagree with you, and that includes our 2009 corners.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: OT: Revis wants 20M per year....

Who else are we going to look at with similar production to Revis? You even admitted yourself that we can't be sure how much Nmandi faced true #1 WR's on the opposing team. He's the only one remotely in Revis' class as of right now. And the point is not that he simply just FACED tough competition, but that he completely shut them down. This is the meat of my argument. We can be sure how much Revis went one on one against the opposition's #1 WR. We cannot do the same with Nmandi. There are only two conclusions: the first is that an argument cannot be made in Nmandi's favor. The second is a landslide victory in Revis' favor.

As for Steve Smith and T.O., you're free to believe that they aren't good receivers anymore if you so wish. I have a feeling that a great many corners in the league would be inclined to disagree with you, and that includes our 2009 corners.

No, no, no, no.
The point of discussion is that you said he had a great year AND did it against the toughest competition anyone has faced in years.
I didn't dispute he had a great year, I dispute elevating it because of the level of competition.
That is my entire dispute. Yes, he produced as he did, but it is neither heightened or lessened by the competition which was thoroughly average.

As far as the TO and Smith part of it, you fail in your answer. I didn't say they aren't any good, thats not the litmus test, the litmus test is if they are excellent compared to #1 WRs in 2009, because thats what determines the competition level. We can debate whether they are any longer #1s but you can't seriously tell me that drawing one of those AND the QB throwing to them last season is drawing a tougher assignment than the average QB and #1 WR int he league.
BTW, TO is not a #1 any more, he is barely a #2, but that debate is irrelevant to the discussion.

In the end, its kind of a silly argument to say that there are reasons to explain why a team that was terrible passing the ball against everyone is a tough matchup comparatively. Just throwing out names and saying see, he's good, and I bet corners wouldn't say he sucks, just clouds the real facts.

 

[eom]

in the first pats game I think the jets blitzed (by the below definition) about 75% of the time on 50 passing snaps.

Stats put Jets' kitchen-sink D in perspective - AFC East Blog - ESPN

We all know the New York Jets love to blitz.

But until you see a breakdown of the numbers, it's hard to quantify how much the Jets get after it compared to other defenses.


The Jets are blitzing more than any other team in the league.

ESPN Stats & Information tracks every snap and has determined the Jets have sent added pressure a whopping 62.6 percent of the time through the first three weeks.

They've recorded only four sacks, but anybody who has watched the Jets' defense can't deny how their disruptive ways have rattled quarterbacks and short-circuited opposing offenses.

That's far and away the largest percentage in the league. The Chicago Bears are next when it comes to sending added pressure at 47.5 percent.

The NFL average is 35.6 percent.

The Oakland Raiders are the most conservative team at 11.0 percent.

Stats & Information defines "standard pressure" as four pass-rushers. But if, for example, only three advance and a fourth comes from the secondary, then that would be considered "added pressure."

 

[Ring 6]

BTW, you could very easily choose 3 or 4 teams and look at the stats of the #1 WR on every team they faced (subtracting out the game they faced them to take away the effect of how well you covered them) and compare that to the top receiver on all the teams the Jets faced (being careful to adjust for games missed, etc) and see who faced the most productive WR corps. I think you'd see Revis in the middle of the pack.
If your point is to see how much more or less they did against the guy, thats a different argument. That the quality of his play. How those players did against everyone else determines the quality of competition he did it against.
Example:
My D allows 2.2 rushing yards per carry and the rest of the league average is 4.0
If I analyze and see that the teams I faced only averaged 3.6 (against everyone else) then I did that against inferior competition.
I destroyed the inferior competition and most likely that 1.4 below their average is easily the best in the league, but I can't say I had the best yards per carry against the best competition.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: OT: Revis wants 20M per year....

Well I'm never going to convince you, but I think many folks would disagree with you.

So you are saying that in over 75 years in the NFL 2 of the 5 best seasons ever by a corner were last year? I mean, because Charles Woodson was the DPOY so he was at least top 4 by your count right?

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: OT: Revis wants 20M per year....

No, no, no, no.
The point of discussion is that you said he had a great year AND did it against the toughest competition anyone has faced in years.
I didn't dispute he had a great year, I dispute elevating it because of the level of competition.
That is my entire dispute. Yes, he produced as he did, but it is neither heightened or lessened by the competition which was thoroughly average.

I disagree. A lot of these guys had extenuating circumstances. The best you can point out is T.O. and Smith. Those two are still very good receivers who had quarterback problems last year. T.O. had to put up with the likes of Fitzpatrick and Smith had to go through Delhomme/Matt Moore. You see me Owens and Smith, I raise you Andre Johnson, Randy Moss (twice), Reggie Wayne (twice, once in the AFCCG). Frankly, I disagree with your assessment about T.O. and Smith. They are both still very good wide receivers. Just ask Shawn Springs who trailed Smith by a good 7-8 yards as he was getting burned for a TD.

As far as the TO and Smith part of it, you fail in your answer. I didn't say they aren't any good, thats not the litmus test, the litmus test is if they are excellent compared to #1 WRs in 2009, because thats what determines the competition level. We can debate whether they are any longer #1s but you can't seriously tell me that drawing one of those AND the QB throwing to them last season is drawing a tougher assignment than the average QB and #1 WR int he league.

That's fine. Revis still shut down the Andre Johson and Matt Schaub duo along with the Peyton Manning and Reggie Wayne duo. But, since we're on the subject, for all the QB issues Smith had to put up with on top of being on a run-first team, Steve Smith was 18 yards shy of a 1000 yard season and scored 7 TD's on the year. It wasn't his most impressive year, but Smith is still a very good WR whether you want to admit it or not. As for Owens? Despite only having 55 receptions, he reeled in 829 yards, 5 TD's, and a 15.1 YPC average. I personally think these numbers are pretty decent for guys who are "no longer #1 WR's playing with bad QB's". Just goes to show you that other corners in the league still struggled against them despite their team's deficiencies at quarterback.

BTW, TO is not a #1 any more, he is barely a #2, but that debate is irrelevant to the discussion.

Are you going to try to tell me that Lee Evans was the featured target in the Buffalo offense last season? Evans was the WR2 in that offense. It was T.O. who drew the majority of the attention from opposing defenses.

 

[efin98]

Between Revis' demands and Jabba Wrecks' contractual buffet stipend, that team will go bankrupt sooner than later.

Woody Johnson has deep pockets, the team is safe for a while.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: OT: Revis wants 20M per year....

But the competition wasnt even NFL average, much less the toughest anyone faced in years. A lot of #1 corners faced tougher just last year.

Name one. 10char

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: OT: Revis wants 20M per year....

So you are saying that in over 75 years in the NFL 2 of the 5 best seasons ever by a corner were last year? I mean, because Charles Woodson was the DPOY so he was at least top 4 by your count right?

Seriously? So mediots' opinions matter now? Because you're among the first in line to discredit them when they say something that you don't like. These are the same geniuses who decided that Bob Sanders was the DPOY in 2007, after all.

Woodson had a very good year, but Revis was much better. Top 5 season of all time? I wouldn't go that far, but Revis this year was better than any CB I've seen in a while. He's better than Asomugha, best comp. is, I guess, maybe Bailey in his prime, but as I've already said I'd still take Revis' 2009 over any of Bailey's single seasons.

And I hate the Jets. Sometimes you guys go way off the deep end with the Jets hate, though. Clouds your judgment. You can wish it not to be true all you want, but Revis is the best CB in the NFL, and it's not really close. Luckily for us, Sanchez was one of the worst starting QBs in the league last year, so the Jets aren't going anywhere near the super bowl anyways.

 

[ausbacker]

Re: OT: Revis wants 20M per year....

Seriously? So mediots' opinions matter now? Because you're among the first in line to discredit them when they say something that you don't like. These are the same geniuses who decided that Bob Sanders was the DPOY in 2007, after all.

Woodson had a very good year, but Revis was much better. Top 5 season of all time? I wouldn't go that far, but Revis this year was better than any CB I've seen in a while. He's better than Asomugha, best comp. is, I guess, maybe Bailey in his prime, but as I've already said I'd still take Revis' 2009 over any of Bailey's single seasons.

And I hate the Jets. Sometimes you guys go way off the deep end with the Jets hate, though. Clouds your judgment. You can wish it not to be true all you want, but Revis is the best CB in the NFL, and it's not really close. Luckily for us, Sanchez was one of the worst starting QBs in the league last year, so the Jets aren't going anywhere near the super bowl anyways.

I love Darrelle Revis because he's a fine footballer and I loathe the Jets but as a football fan I respect talent and performance. I'm finding it exceptionally difficult to say Revis' 2009 season was better than Bailey's 2006 season. From memory he didn't give up a touchdown and had a ridiculously small completion against rate just like Revis.

People forget way too quickly in this what have you done for me lately league.

 

[Sivy]

I'm a better football player than revis...why? Becaus I'm not a NY Jet.

 

[Rob0729]

dude, you have absolutely no idea wtf you're talking about.

don't take it personal.

Mea culpa here. It was late Sunday night and I went a little overboard with an argument. The weakside stuff was just stuff I kinda assumed in the heat of the moment, but WRs primarily play on the same side most of the time. Look at most primary WRs and a majority of their catches are on one side of the field. Look at the Pats, Welker is Brady's primary WR and 46 of his 123 catches were on the right side (only 31 were on the left side and 27 were over the middle and those probably were mostly when he was lining up on the right side). So obviously the 10-20% part of my argument is just a number I assumed.

I still stand by my assertion that most defenses who play man defense will put their best CB on the opposing team's best WR no matter what side they line up on. It may not happen every game or even most games, but Revis isn't the only CB in the game who primarily covers the best WR. Why would the the Raiders put Asomugha opposite a guy who gets 500 yards a season (many #2 guys are pretty bad) when the other WR is getting 1,200 a season?

Also, I stand by my assertion that the Jets do play a certain percentage of zone defense (every team does although I don't know the percentage the Jets run it) and in those scenarios, Revis may line up opposite the other WR, but his primary responsibility is the zone and not the man. If the WR runs out of his zone, Revis will hand off the receiver to another player. So he isn't covering the primary WR 100% of the time.

Also, I still maintain that the Jets do have two safety deep coverages (they don't use it all the time) where the safety does provide support over the top. And Revis does benefit from that a lot (maybe not as much as

I will chock the rest up to the heat of the argument, the wear of a long weekend, and arguing while doing work for my business. I have no problem admitting when I veer off track and this was a case.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: OT: Revis wants 20M per year....

Seriously? So mediots' opinions matter now? Because you're among the first in line to discredit them when they say something that you don't like. These are the same geniuses who decided that Bob Sanders was the DPOY in 2007, after all.

Woodson had a very good year, but Revis was much better. Top 5 season of all time? I wouldn't go that far, but Revis this year was better than any CB I've seen in a while. He's better than Asomugha, best comp. is, I guess, maybe Bailey in his prime, but as I've already said I'd still take Revis' 2009 over any of Bailey's single seasons.

And I hate the Jets. Sometimes you guys go way off the deep end with the Jets hate, though. Clouds your judgment. You can wish it not to be true all you want, but Revis is the best CB in the NFL, and it's not really close. Luckily for us, Sanchez was one of the worst starting QBs in the league last year, so the Jets aren't going anywhere near the super bowl anyways.

-Its hard to argue its one of the 5 best seasons ever by a corner when someone else was voted to be better whatever grain of salt you take with awards
-Its not about him being a Jet its about overexxageration. I comment consistently against overexxagerating in both directions, and it has nothing to do with the Patriots or Jets or Dolphins, other than they are the most discussed teams on this board.