OT: Official 2021 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[Deus Irae]

Didn't the Patriots actually sign Sanders when he was a RFA and the Steelers matched it then the next year they didn't pursue him and he signed with the Broncos. I know the 1st part is true not sure about the 2nd part.

Yes, it was both. They did the RFA route (2013), but didn't give him the kind of contract that would have prevented the Steelers from matching. They then followed that up by losing out to the Broncos in the bid for his services (2014).

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Yes, it was both. They did the RFA route (2013), but didn't give him the kind of contract that would have prevented the Steelers from matching. They then followed that up by losing out to the Broncos in the bid for his services (2014).

I still have no idea why they didn't offer Sanders a little more to prevent the Steelers from matching. The Steelers were buried under the cap at the time, and freeing up any money was a challenge. They offered him 1-year, $2.5M. The 2013 WR situation was disastrous, and they'd already signed Edelman the same day they made the offer.

 

[gobesmug]

I still have no idea why they didn't offer Sanders a little more to prevent the Steelers from matching. The Steelers were buried under the cap at the time, and freeing up any money was a challenge. They offered him 1-year, $2.5M. The 2013 WR situation was disastrous, and they'd already signed Edelman the same day they made the offer.

I believe Sanders had a 2nd Rd tender so they didn't want to give up the pick plus the contract, which makes less sense since they did that before with Welker and it worked perfectly

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I believe Sanders had a 2nd Rd tender so they didn't want to give up the pick plus the contract, which makes less sense since they did that before with Welker and it worked perfectly

They could have done a multi-year deal for pretty cheap, too. Front load the first year so Steelers couldn’t match. Denver presumably had to outbid several teams in 2014 and got him for 3/15.

And before someone says “hindsight,” let’s remember they were willing to part with a second round pick for Sanders. So if he’s worth a second round pick, he’s worth the $3-4M per year. The team tried to get too cute and then it appeared Dobson was the plan all along.

 

[gobesmug]

They could have done a multi-year deal for pretty cheap, too. Front load the first year so Steelers couldn’t match. Denver presumably had to outbid several teams in 2014 and got him for 3/15.

And before someone says “hindsight,” let’s remember they were willing to part with a second round pick for Sanders. So if he’s worth a second round pick, he’s worth the $3-4M per year. The team tried to get too cute and then it appeared Dobson was the plan all along.

How they thought Aaron, #3 wr on Marshall, was better than Keenan Allen I'll never get.

I kept screaming at the TV in the 2nd round for them to draft Allen only to see Dropson's name called

 

[Zarozzor]

I still have no idea why they didn't offer Sanders a little more to prevent the Steelers from matching. The Steelers were buried under the cap at the time, and freeing up any money was a challenge. They offered him 1-year, $2.5M. The 2013 WR situation was disastrous, and they'd already signed Edelman the same day they made the offer.

The players who received at least 1 target in the 2013 AFC Championship Game always makes me laugh looking back on it. I was furious at the time but that all went away in the Super Bowl two weeks later.

Patriots
Julian Edelman
Shane Vereen
Austin Collie
Aaron Dobson
Michael Hoomanawanui
Matthew Mulligan
Danny Amendola
Matthew Slater


Broncos
Julius Thomas
Demaryius Thomas
Eric Decker
Wes Welker
Montee Ball
Knowshon Moreno
Jacob Tamme

2006 and 2013 are two seasons that always need to be brought up if you're explaining why Brady is so great.

 

[amfootball]

The players who received at least 1 target in the 2013 AFC Championship Game always makes me laugh looking back on it. I was furious at the time but that all went away in the Super Bowl two weeks later.

Patriots
Julian Edelman
Shane Vereen
Austin Collie
Aaron Dobson
Michael Hoomanawanui
Matthew Mulligan
Danny Amendola
Matthew Slater


Broncos
Julius Thomas
Demaryius Thomas
Eric Decker
Wes Welker
Montee Ball
Knowshon Moreno
Jacob Tamme

2006 and 2013 are two seasons that always need to be brought up if you're explaining why Brady is so great.

Or why Bill totally screwed the roster costing us additional rings.

 

[Tony2046]

Or why Bill totally screwed the roster costing us additional rings.

We witnessed six rings in twenty years.

I enjoy the 20/20 hindsight stuff and agree with some of it but I will never feel "screwed" by any of it.

 

[amfootball]

We witnessed six rings in twenty years.

I enjoy the 20/20 hindsight stuff and agree with some of it but I will never feel "screwed" by any of it.

To each their own but in reality the six rings as ridiculous as the number is should have been more if not for Bill's poor roster management. I know no GM is perfect but his lack of addressing the skill positions adequately throughout the run is glaring.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

To each their own but in reality the six rings as ridiculous as the number is should have been more if not for Bill's poor roster management. I know no GM is perfect but his lack of addressing the skill positions adequately throughout the run is glaring.

I don't know...maybe, maybe not. I'm more inclined to agree with Tony on this one, and it's difficult for me to envision a scenario where a coach/GM played his cards better over a fifteen year period than Belichick. I think Bill was the game's best GM from roughly 2000-2012 until the league caught up to him and started putting economics/analytics guys in their front office rather than meathead football guys. And as a coach, unquestionably he was overall one of the best, though that's challenging to actually measure.

Though, about five years ago, things really changed. IMO, the last five years just left a very sour note:

• I screamed at the TV for the only time I remember when I watched him piss away HFA in 2015, and then listened to him have the nerve in a presser to say that HFA wasn't very important as long as they got the bye and #2 seed. Really? The Brady/Manning HFA was everything, and the Patriots were always notoriousliy out of sorts in Denver. Of course, they lost by 2 points in the AFCCG and the home crowd noise in that game was specifically a tangible factor with their pass protection.
• I believe the Cleveland beat writers...numerous reputable beat writers. The Browns were willing to trade more than a second round pick for Jimmy Garoppolo. Belichick wouldn't even hear their offer because of some control/spite point he was making.
• He blew Super Bowl 52. He did. And it might have been the only three-peat in the Super Bowl era.
• Gronkowski retired because of Bill; it's so obvious. The GOAT tight end, who was always incredibly unselfish, a great locker room guy, willing to take a lesser role, take less money, drew a line with Belichick. That's alarming.
• He put himself ahead of the team and franchise by not doing everything possible to keep Brady. He couldn't have been more of a clown in the way he handled the situation. No offer. No discussions. Constant lowballing/skepticism about Brady's age. Constant attitude that everyone is replaceable. "Come back and ask us to match the offer if you want to play here." Yeah.
• The excuse making, revisionist history, and ridiculous leaks that came out of Foxoboro last year were outright embarassing.

Bottom line is, Bill should have been the guy whose job was on the line and not Tom.

 

[amfootball]

I don't know...maybe, maybe not. I'm more inclined to agree with Tony on this one, and it's difficult for me to envision a scenario where a coach/GM played his cards better over a fifteen year period than Belichick. I think Bill was the game's best GM from roughly 2000-2012 until the league caught up to him and started putting economics/analytics guys in their front office rather than meathead football guys. And as a coach, unquestionably he was overall one of the best, though that's challenging to actually measure.

Though, about five years ago, things really changed. IMO, the last five years just left a very sour note:

• I screamed at the TV for the only time I remember when I watched him piss away HFA in 2015, and then listened to him have the nerve in a presser to say that HFA wasn't very important as long as they got the bye and #2 seed. Really? The Brady/Manning HFA was everything, and the Patriots were always notoriousliy out of sorts in Denver. Of course, they lost by 2 points in the AFCCG and the home crowd noise in that game was specifically a tangible factor with their pass protection.
• I believe the Cleveland beat writers...numerous reputable beat writers. The Browns were willing to trade more than a second round pick for Jimmy Garoppolo. Belichick wouldn't even hear their offer because of some control/spite point he was making.
• He blew Super Bowl 52. He did. And it might have been the only three-peat in the Super Bowl era.
• Gronkowski retired because of Bill; it's so obvious. The GOAT tight end, who was always incredibly unselfish, a great locker room guy, willing to take a lesser role, take less money, drew a line with Belichick. That's alarming.
• He put himself ahead of the team and franchise by not doing everything possible to keep Brady. He couldn't have been more of a clown in the way he handled the situation. No offer. No discussions. Constant lowballing/skepticism about Brady's age. Constant attitude that everyone is replaceable. "Come back and ask us to match the offer if you want to play here." Yeah.
• The excuse making, revisionist history, and ridiculous leaks that came out of Foxoboro last year were outright embarassing.

Bottom line is, Bill should have been the guy whose job was on the line and not Tom.

I agree with every single one of your bullet points. His awful game plan vs the Falcons in the SB also don't get talked about nearly enough because Brady pulled a rabbit out of his hat to win that SB. But we were being beaten as badly as a team could be beaten for 2.5 quarters on both sides until the Falcons brain farted the game away and the GOAT took advantage.

In terms of your first point, not retaining Branch or Givens in 2006 was inexcusable IMO. If Brady has one decent receiver that year, we win the SB.
The defensive rebuild from 2009-2013 was painful as he whiffed all the secondary and LBs so badly. If he just spent some money like he did in 2014 to shore things up, we win those years. One could argue those were Brady's prime years.

 

[carmelo15]

I don't know...maybe, maybe not. I'm more inclined to agree with Tony on this one, and it's difficult for me to envision a scenario where a coach/GM played his cards better over a fifteen year period than Belichick. I think Bill was the game's best GM from roughly 2000-2012 until the league caught up to him and started putting economics/analytics guys in their front office rather than meathead football guys. And as a coach, unquestionably he was overall one of the best, though that's challenging to actually measure.

Though, about five years ago, things really changed. IMO, the last five years just left a very sour note:

• I screamed at the TV for the only time I remember when I watched him piss away HFA in 2015, and then listened to him have the nerve in a presser to say that HFA wasn't very important as long as they got the bye and #2 seed. Really? The Brady/Manning HFA was everything, and the Patriots were always notoriousliy out of sorts in Denver. Of course, they lost by 2 points in the AFCCG and the home crowd noise in that game was specifically a tangible factor with their pass protection.
• I believe the Cleveland beat writers...numerous reputable beat writers. The Browns were willing to trade more than a second round pick for Jimmy Garoppolo. Belichick wouldn't even hear their offer because of some control/spite point he was making.
• He blew Super Bowl 52. He did. And it might have been the only three-peat in the Super Bowl era.
• Gronkowski retired because of Bill; it's so obvious. The GOAT tight end, who was always incredibly unselfish, a great locker room guy, willing to take a lesser role, take less money, drew a line with Belichick. That's alarming.
• He put himself ahead of the team and franchise by not doing everything possible to keep Brady. He couldn't have been more of a clown in the way he handled the situation. No offer. No discussions. Constant lowballing/skepticism about Brady's age. Constant attitude that everyone is replaceable. "Come back and ask us to match the offer if you want to play here." Yeah.
• The excuse making, revisionist history, and ridiculous leaks that came out of Foxoboro last year were outright embarassing.

Bottom line is, Bill should have been the guy whose job was on the line and not Tom.

Ya Gronk/Brady two selfless guys turned on BB that’s alarming

 

[carmelo15]

Apparently Joe Tyron is killing it in training camp and beating all word Tristin Wirfs. If Tampa is getting a ready now pass rusher that defense will the best in the league easily

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't know...maybe, maybe not. I'm more inclined to agree with Tony on this one, and it's difficult for me to envision a scenario where a coach/GM played his cards better over a fifteen year period than Belichick.

2006 w/Branch
2007 SB punting instead of kicking
2009 Not resting Welker against the Texans, knowing about the rug problems there from just a week or two earlier
2010 Allowing the Moss situation to spin out of control rather than just working out a deal
2011 Putting that defense on the field
2013 Putting that WR/TE group on the field
2014 Burning a high draft pick on JAG

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

2006 w/Branch
2007 SB punting instead of kicking
2009 Not resting Welker against the Texans, knowing about the rug problems there from just a week or two earlier
2010 Allowing the Moss situation to spin out of control rather than just working out a deal
2011 Putting that defense on the field
2013 Putting that WR/TE group on the field
2014 Burning a high draft pick on JAG

Some of these are bad, no doubt. I'm not sure how many things like this would show up with any given GM/coach over that time period in the salary cap era.

I think the Branch trade was one of the worst. It's hard to imagine that team doesn't win it all with a competent WR.

The 2007 SB call was even worse than punting...they went for it on 4th and really long, so they weren't even taking field position; just a totally irrrational decision. The fourth down calls in the 1st half of SB52 were also bizarre and should be considered a choke job where you make irrational decisions because it's the Super Bowl and you outsmart yourself.

2009, I wasn't aware of that about Welker and the run issues in Houston.

All due respect, I think Moss was finished in 2010; he was never productive again.

2011, I felt like putting Edelman out there with some other scrubs was as much an ego stroke as anything. That's the situation where you trade a high draft pick at the trade deadline for the best corner available.

2013 WR corps was a **** show, for sure. All the DUMB fans said to draft Keenan Allen and sign Emmanuel Sanders, but I guess that was too obvious or something. A reminder that Julian Edelman was essentially signed as a punt returner and WR4 at the time.

Did you think the Garoppolo pick was that bad? Given Brady's age at the time, I thought it made sense.

 

[Deus Irae]

Did you think the Garoppolo pick was that bad? Given Brady's age at the time, I thought it made sense.

I think my early posts on that are still searchable. I hated that pick. The team was coming off of a year where it was clear that they needed more talent. Belichick seemingly misread Brady's struggles as being because he was in decline, rather than because BB had screwed up with personnel, and he burned a 2nd round pick on a backup QB, when he had the GOAT still under center.

Literally the very next pick after JAG was Jarvis Landry.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I think my early posts on that are still searchable. I hated that pick. The team was coming off of a year where it was clear that they needed more talent. Belichick seemingly misread Brady's struggles as being because he was in decline, rather than because BB had screwed up with personnel, and he burned a 2nd round pick on a backup QB, when he had the GOAT still under center.

Literally the very next pick after JAG was Jarvis Landry.

Yeah, it's true. In fact, you can see some foreshadowing in 2013/14 (Brady wasn't struggling; he was throwing to garbage) of what would happen in 2019/20.

I was railing about the Bucs picking Kyle Trask, too, so I hear you. I hate the idea of using a top 75 pick on a quarterback when you have a quarterback like Brady and you're a championship contender; there are still reasonable odds that your top 75 pick will be a starter and make an impact.

The Garopollo pick would have redeemed itself if Bill had traded him to Cleveland in the 2017 offseason when Cleveland was willing to give up a first round pick and more. In that sense, it would have been a value pick where you think the player is so great you'll get a great ROI regardless. But instead, it was somewhat of a burned pick. Same thing with picking Jacoby Brissett in the third round in 2016; the league opinion of Brissett was that he could be a starter in the right system. The Colts were desperately needing a QB with Luck getting injured, so did the Patriots leverage the pick for a huge return? Nope - traded him for a draft bust who was getting cut anyway. I have no idea why you bother picking these quarterbacks and wasting 2nd and 3rd round picks when you're not going to maximize your return if they turn out to be good. So you can occassionally get a spot start due to injury and the guy is really good at imitating the opposing QB?

 

[Tony2046]

To each their own but in reality the six rings as ridiculous as the number is should have been more if not for Bill's poor roster management. I know no GM is perfect but his lack of addressing the skill positions adequately throughout the run is glaring.

I agree with most criticisms of Belichick. But I'm just saying that I don't feel screwed. Actually I feel grateful.

First super bowl I had no kids. The last five my son and I were high fiving each other. That's unbelievable.

 

[amfootball]

I agree with most criticisms of Belichick. But I'm just saying that I don't feel screwed. Actually I feel grateful.

First super bowl I had no kids. The last five my son and I were high fiving each other. That's unbelievable.

I agree. Very blessed to have seen so many unbelievable seasons. I have no resentment toward Bill. More just talking shop and the what it's which is always fun and informative. I enjoy everyone's take.

 

[wpdougie2180]

I think my early posts on that are still searchable. I hated that pick. The team was coming off of a year where it was clear that they needed more talent. Belichick seemingly misread Brady's struggles as being because he was in decline, rather than because BB had screwed up with personnel, and he burned a 2nd round pick on a backup QB, when he had the GOAT still under center.

Literally the very next pick after JAG was Jarvis Landry.

Not sure if Lombardi was here but he has said this on numerous times that he & BB misjudged everything and thought Brady was in decline and not because of the talent around him. Amazingly enough he and BB repeated history with 2019 and thought Brady was in decline instead of the talent once again. But the difference is this time they/he won't admit it.