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OT: Cavs vs. Warriors (Who Wins the NBA Finals?)

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by CISGS, May 31, 2016.

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Who Wins the NBA Finals?

  1. Cavs

    28 vote(s)
    26.2%
  2. Warriors

    79 vote(s)
    73.8%
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  1. robertweathers

    robertweathers PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I knew once I brought up the Kobe > LeBron in the clutch argument someone would eventually read that ;)

    I actually think Lebron is better in the clutch than his numbers dictate. I think his shot selection is sometimes questionable (as opposed to being a ****y) but at the end of the day I don't think he is as good as a perimeter shooter as Kobe - which is key in clutch shooting, even though his overall shooting is.
     
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  2. TBR

    TBR Pro Bowl Player

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    These comparisons to Brady are just awful.

    The following is nowhere near the same as Brady surrendering to a sack (and there's multiple occurrences of this from 2015-2016 season alone)

    Flopping, time & time again, to trick the ref into giving you a call (whether it be the game-changing call to get Curry to foul out, or the outrageous flop vs Toronto) - is nowhere near the same as Brady getting heated over a flag that wasn't thrown.
     
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  3. robertweathers

    robertweathers PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Can someone explain to me what LeBron's issue with Steph is?

    Has Steph ever dissed LeBron?

    My initial reaction to the shirt and the Kermit hat is that LeBron is a caddy, insecure, doosh.
     
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  4. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! Goodell sucks PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Do you have a source on that playing weight for Malone? Everything I've seen says otherwise. The guy was an absolute maniac with training, and from everything I've read he was as obsessed with MJ at maintaining a very precise playing weight in the mid-250s. In fact, even now he's apparently still at his playing weight: Utah Jazz legend Karl Malone going strong at 50 years old.

    NBA height measurements are notoriously unreliable, so it's true that we have a hard time knowing this stuff. Luckily, for this generation of players we have the 1992 Olympics, which is how we learned that pretty much everyone was overstating their height by at least an inch. It's all pretty well detailed here: BARCELONA: BASKETBALL; Dream Team Reaching New Heights

    Malone wasn't mentioned in this article, but he came in at 6'8", vs. a listed height of 6'9". If it seems that he and Bird were the same height, it's because they were: they're both 6'8". LeBron, FWIW, measured 6'8" in the 2012 Olympics. If there's a height difference between them, it's a very small one.

    LeBron, btw, weighed 240 when he came into the league in 2003 looking like this:

    [​IMG]


    I think it goes without saying that he's added at least 10-15 pounds since then.

    Just for starters, I'd say I disagree. Why should he? He carries his 250+ pounds about as well as anyone ever has. But that aside, he did lose 20 pounds last offseason, I doubt he can reasonably lose any more without becoming less effective as a player. He's lost a step or three since 2010, independent of weight. That's what happens to guys who have played as many minutes as he has.

    Barring injury, LeBron's going to pass Kobe in career minutes next year (NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Minutes Played | Basketball-Reference.com). People really underestimate how much mileage he has on him. That he carries it as well as he does is really just a testament to how hard he works at maintaining his body. Apparently he's a near Brady-level freak when it comes to body maintenance.


    He didn't, but only because there was nothing like Golden State's spacing in the 80s and 90s. It didn't really exist.

    Agreed, he was my favorite non-Celtic of that era, in part because of that. It was crazy to watch him consistently outrebound guys 6+ inches taller than him.

    I totally agree with that first part. As much as I dislike Draymond, he's a hell of a player. But to kinda restate my previous post, he pulls almost 10 boards a game because all the other stuff that he (and the rest of the team) does forces teams to pull their centers and try to match up to him with ****ty end-of-bench forwards instead. On the rare occasions that he goes up against a team whose bigs can defend to the 3 point line, he struggles on the boards.

    That's not to discredit him at all, just further evidence that he's the perfect big for this GS team. In the 90s, that would not be the case, because no team had the overall shooting that GS has, and therefore they didn't have to let Draymond dictate their substitution patterns. They would leave their bigs in, dare Draymond's team to seek out the open corner 3 rather than the iso, and dominate the boards in the mean time.


    Magic in particular deferred a lot more than I think you're giving him credit for. And as Letekro pointed out, LeBron has been far more reliable in the final 10 seconds of close postseason games than Kobe ever was. We remember the shots that Kobe made, but he missed a lot more. He is not the model for what I want in the last 10 seconds of a close game. What I like about LeBron and Durant both is that they look for the team's best shot, even if they're not taking it. I just don't see it as a negative in the same way that you do, and I think the results vindicate LeBron's approach. He isn't as good as Jordan was, so he'll inevitably fail that comparison, and he isn't specifically the clutch shooter that Bird was (but really, who is?). But I would take him over Kobe in the last 10 seconds for sure, and I think he has a lot more in common with Magic than you're accounting for.
     
  5. BradyFTW!

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    Steph and LeBron jawed at each other a ton during the finals, and Steph's wife had a bunch of **** to say about LeBron on twitter for whatever that's worth (not much in my book). As far as I know, neither of them has ever publicly dissed the other, but I'm sure that on the court things get heated, as you'd expect when two great players face off.

    As for the insecurity, etc... I mean, yeah, I agree. But is that really surprising? Michael Jordan is the GOAT, and his HOF induction speech was everything you just described about LeBron. It was legendary for its cattiness, weird insecurity, and douchiness.



    That's just kinda how these pathologically competitive guys are wired. They take every small slight personally, even when it isn't intended as a slight at all. Rodney Harrison's spoken at length about how the entire Patriots dynasty defense did the same thing. It doesn't always come off as mature or gracious, but it's part of what fuels them and it is what it is, for lack of a better term.
     
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  6. letekro

    letekro Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Did you really just link to a random play from the first quarter of a game against the Lakers in which Lebron failed to close out on the legendary Wesley Johnson as evidence that Lebron dogs it? You are becoming a strong ignore list candidate.

    Flopping isn't really a part of football. Even still, Brady famously flopped against the Jets trying to draw a 15 yd penalty. I'm sure you said "Smart Play!" when Brady did it.
     
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  7. wolverinejoe80

    wolverinejoe80 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    malone and bron are probably similar in height. 6ft 8 range. but malone was definitely bigger - packed much more muscle. bron is leaner and more athletic.

    i would have to guess bron's playing weight right now is 250-255lb (he was actually bigger when he first got to Heat - many complained about carrying too much weight). Malone is anywhere from 260-275lb. as far as upper body goes malone carried much more muscle to me. but maybe bron is all lower extremity.
     
  8. BradyFTW!

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    Okay, so there are 'multiple occurrences' of him failing to contest over the course of a 100+ game season. I'm not disagreeing, I just think that's an absurd standard to hold someone to, because literally everyone in the league fails it. There were multiple occurrences of Draymond and Kawhi doing the same thing, and they're the consensus best defensive players in the NBA. So who cares?

    And as I've already pointed out a few times, LeBron has to preserve his body somehow. He's played more minutes in the past 7 seasons than anyone has ever played in the history of the NBA, and played the majority of them as an First-Team All NBA defender. What clips like that show is the cumulative effect of an unprecedented workload, from a guy who's already fourth all-time in minutes played. If letting up a bit when you're owning the second-worst team in the league in the middle of the season is what it takes to preserve enough energy to do what he did games 5-7, then anyone in the world will take that, starting with his coach.

    And you keep saying he flops 'time and time again', and I'll keep saying that that's just sour grapes. HE doesn't flop any more than just about everyone else in the league, you're falling victim to confirmation bias there. Just like everyone who thinks Brady cries for flags.
     
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  9. BradyFTW!

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    Malone played at/around 256. It was something of an obsession of his, to the point that even to this day he prides himself on maintaining that weight. You can read more about his training regimen here, the guy was an absolute freak about minimizing body fat and maintaining a weight at/around 256: Karl Malone shares his training secrets. here's another article just 3 years ago detailing how he still somehow manages to maintain that weight: Utah Jazz legend Karl Malone going strong at 50 years old

    Clearly, he had bigger biceps than LeBron, but that doesn't change the fact that they play/played at similar weights.
     
  10. TBR

    TBR Pro Bowl Player

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    I clearly said there were tons of examples of him doing that. The player taking the shot is irrelevant.

    You're on a Patriots forum and you're considering putting people on an 'ignore list' over basketball? Yikes.

    How about the 4th quarter of a 1 possession game?

     
  11. TBR

    TBR Pro Bowl Player

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    This lazy defense is absolutely not "preserving his body".
     
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  12. robertweathers

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    I got nothing for sources. Just going by memory. The deal is that Larry's height coming out of ISU was 6-9 1/2. Bob Woolf suggested he be listed at 6-10 (more $$) but Larry didn't want to be matched up with bigger players and wanted to be a "small forward" so he was insistent on being listed at 6-9. With Malone, I went to a Celts/Jazz game in 87 and they were standing next to each other and were exactly the same height with Karl a smidge taller. I was near the court. With that said there is no way in hell Magic was 6-9. Hes a lot more like 6-7 or 6-8. Its always annoyed me that they did that. Larry is around 6-7 now with the xtra pounds and the disks and bone they've pulled out of his back. Oh, and Karl being 270...I read that somewhere around 1994 as he was wiped after the Olympics and in 1993 he thought he was too skinny so he really beefed up to be stronger but he probably did what I mentioned and dropped the weight and stayed around 250/260

    Its my opinion as a hoop player. The older you get, you need to get lighter and farther away from the rim so you last longer. Its better for the knees and joints.

    With that said I agree that Lebron takes great care of himself. Maybe hes ok at 250. I think in hoop anytime or anyway you can gain quickness and avoid physical punishment it can only help your game and longevity.

    I agree but my point is that DET and CHI were jumpshooting teams with good spacing and not made up of rosters with lane cloggers. Even Laimbeer was a perimeter guy.


    Mine too. Love Bark.


    I think thats accurate. Its incredible how much the game has changed.

    From 1980 to 1986 Magic defered b/c KAJ always got the ball. From 87 on it was Magics ball and he delivered.

    Bird, Jerry West, Reggie Miller and MJ are GoATS of clutch. I put Kobe a notch below those guys.

    Check out the Kobe vs Lebron #s under 5 seconds left.
     
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  13. BradyFTW!

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    Kobe peaked as a 3 point shooter between the ages of 27 and 30, where at his best he hit 36% of 3s at age 29. Barring a trend reversal, LeBron will have peaked similarly between the ages of 27 and 30, where he twice hit a higher percentage than Kobe ever did, at his best topping 40% at age 28. This was all done while taking a roughly comparable number of 3 point attempts.

    I was pretty surprised by those numbers, FWIW. My impression has always matched yours that Kobe was a better perimeter shooter, and I still maintain that he was better at midrange and on long 2s until I see evidence suggesting otherwise. I expected the numbers to bear out my beliefs, but from what I've seen so far that doesn't seem to be the case.
     
  14. letekro

    letekro Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Um it looks like he incorrectly anticipated a pass from a poor shooter in 2-pt territory (Tyreke Evans) to a great shooter behind the 3 point line (Ryan Anderson), in a 3-pt game. When he realized he was wrong, he headed out for the fast break. If this is a criminal offense, then literally every NBA player would be in jail. It's just that no one is going to make a clip of Jonas Jerebko failing to close out properly.
     
  15. robertweathers

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    Kobe's offensive game is smoother and more sudden but as we all know never saw a shot he never liked. Clearly LeBron is much more selective and overall shoots higher % shots as he goes to the rim more.

    LeBron is not a jump shooter off penetration. Thats Kobe's game. Same as Michael's in the dynasty years...
     
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  16. BradyFTW!

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    I think that really highlights how full of **** all of these height measurements are. KG is another one, famously insisted on being listed as 6'11, despite the fact that he was probably 7'1, purely because he didn't want to be stuck at center playing with his back to the basket. This is the main reason why I go with Olympic heights whenever possible. At least that way everyone's being measured to the same standard, with some semblance of objectivity.


    I think that's a fair assessment, but to his credit I also think LeBron's done that. The guy was 240 at 18 years old, and is only about 5% heavier than that right now. He just naturally has a power forward's body, and the amount of dieting that he would have to undertake to change that would be a significant net negative to his game.

    I agree on pretty much everything else you wrote, although I'd put Kobe a lot more than a notch below those guys. I'd consider putting Ray Allen in that 'a notch below' category, and honestly I think Klay Thompson might be on his way into the conversation, although we'll need a much longer track record before we can seriously start making those types of claims.
     
  17. BradyFTW!

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    I'd agree with that, yeah. It makes sense that LeBron shoots a higher percentage overall since he's always favored going to the rim (and at his size, why wouldn't he?). I'd definitely take Kobe's midrange game over LeBron's.

    Which is why I'm so surprised that LeBron is a markedly better 3 pt. shooter in a similar number of attempts over their prime years.
     
  18. letekro

    letekro Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Lebron probably only practiced 3s, since he can get to the rim so easily (so teams play off him) and a long two is the most inefficient shot in basketball.
     
  19. TBR

    TBR Pro Bowl Player

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    Ridiculous rationalization.
     
  20. robertweathers

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    Yep. For example Bill Walton was 7ft + but listed as 6-11 b/c he was so conscientious of his height. McHale was closer to 6-11 but also didnt want to be a center. If Barkley was 6-6 I'm Hillary Clinton. He was closer to 6-4. Yep on KG. He was 7ft + with the reason he did not want to be listed as a center. Its one big game.

    I'm not suggesting he go on a diet. Hes not fat by any stretch. He just needs to work out differently and change his muscle shape. Make it leaner. More elastic. With that said his game is going to the rack and he needs to be strong to deal with that. I'd really like to see him develop a Kobe/MJ pull up jumper or be more consistent in the mid range. It would help him tremendously as he starts to inch towards his mid 30s..

    Love Klay but he had an erratic series. I'm still processing it. He should have went for 30 a night. He was kinda like that last year in the finals too.
     
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