Official Post Game Thread - Chiefs at Patriots

[jmt57]

I wonder if the uptick in deeper passes was by design (the game plan and play calling), or more due to circumstances (KC doing a good job of coverage on short passes, getting away with holding at the line of scrimmage, Edelman unavailable and then Amendola's injury, playing from behind, etc.)

 

[BradyFTW!]

I wonder if the uptick in deeper passes was by design (the game plan and play calling), or more due to circumstances (KC doing a good job of coverage on short passes, getting away with holding at the line of scrimmage, Edelman unavailable and then Amendola's injury, playing from behind, etc.)

I think it was a direct consequence of Edelman, Mitchell, and Amendola all being injured in a relatively short period. You just can't plan for that, and KC's secondary is good enough that they can punish the hell out of that lack of depth. Can't have an intermediate passing game when 2 of the 3 guys capable of threatening the intermediate portions of the field are covered by lockdown all pros.

In general, I'm really not concerned about the offense. The OL looked really good until the end, and we have a ton of depth at RB and TE. I do think WR depth is a long term concern, and I don't think we're talking enough about how uncomfortable Gronk looked, but I think there's too much talent on offense for them not to get their **** figured out. I'm confident that this is a top-5 scoring offense.

I'm far more worried about the defense, although I'm not freaking out about them by any means. I could just easily see this being a year where the D is clearly the team's weakest unit, and costs us some games that we should win. It won't be 2011 level bad--our secondary is too good for that to happen--but I could see a reasonably likely outcome where the offense is in the 3-5 range and the defense is in the 20ish range. I think we'll end up better than that on defense once Belichick has time to figure out what works and maybe make some trades to fill in the gaps, though.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

I think it was a direct consequence of Edelman, Mitchell, and Amendola all being injured in a relatively short period. You just can't plan for that, and KC's secondary is good enough that they can punish the hell out of that lack of depth. Can't have an intermediate passing game when 2 of the 3 guys capable of threatening the intermediate portions of the field are covered by lockdown all pros.

In general, I'm really not concerned about the offense. The OL looked really good until the end, and we have a ton of depth at RB and TE. I do think WR depth is a long term concern, and I don't think we're talking enough about how uncomfortable Gronk looked, but I think there's too much talent on offense for them not to get their **** figured out. I'm confident that this is a top-5 scoring offense.

I'm far more worried about the defense, although I'm not freaking out about them by any means. I could just easily see this being a year where the D is clearly the team's weakest unit, and costs us some games that we should win.

Tell me the guys we lost on defense last year that we are missing this season? This defense was predicted to be much better with the acquisitions! Last night was an aberration that you just can't exactly explain. If this team gives up 30 next week to the saints than we can start to worry.

 

[BabeParilli]

I am with you. I won't defend Brady as he looked off today and looked off in Superbowl 51 (we won, but he threw a pick six and almost threw a couple picks durung the infamous comeback (but he was magic in that game too) . Saying he's done after today is dumb af though.

Get back to me after week 4.

"Off" to you (and others) is throwing for what equates to the 5th highest average yards per game of all-time, and more than his career average?

Tough audience.

 

[EddardSnow67]

Here is another KC TD play. Question: Would a better disciplined secondary switch off coverage or is Richards expected to react quicker? I ask because he is reaction is probably a quarter second too slow. That's a tight window.

Richards looks lined up properly here.

View attachment 17948

1. Flowers actually disrupts this play and forces Hunt to redirect his route to the inside.
2. It looks like Richards read this late but had to navigate his way through designed traffic.

Well designed play.

View attachment 17947

The traffic:
View attachment 17949

I think there were multiple mistakes on this play, as the Chiefs had multiple options. Richards was late on his read, Rowe (edit: Gilmore, not Rowe) was late coming off the initial help on the upfield route, so the receiver settling down in the middle of the field would have been wide open with a pump fake and an out of position Rowe to beat to the end zone. The delayed crossing route was designed to keep Richards off Hunt, but he was already slow on the read and wasn't going to get there anyway, so that guy would have come open as well, because Butler came off the delayed crossing route to pick up Hunt on the throw, so again, a pump fake probably frees up that route, too, even though it was probably the third or fourth read.

On top of this, a running lane was opening up beautifully for Smith with guys in position to stop secondary fill. I think the Patriots rushed too many and attacked the wrong gaps on their rush. On one hand, the extra rusher helped hurry the play a bit, but again, there was a huge running lane.

So, in short, great play call and design by the Chiefs, bad defensive call (maybe a mistake, can't rule that out) that really put a lot of pressure on the secondary and was a high risk/high reward type of call that I wouldn't expect to see that close to the goal line. Richards did react slowly, but he was looked slightly out of position. Hunt was unlikely to vacate to the field side with trips to the boundary, so Richards could have cheated another step to the boundary side and still had time to adjust if Hunt actually did vacate to the field side. Beyond that, the Pats sent Van Noy off the edge to the field side, so Hunt would have had a lot of traffic to navigate to the field, with none to the boundary.

However, this is my assessment based on having no inside knowledge of the scheme. For all I know, as I noted, guys could have just made the wrong decisions or flat out made mistakes.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Tell me the guys we lost on defense last year that we are missing this season? This defense was predicted to be much better with the acquisitions! Last night was an aberration that you just can't exactly explain. If this team gives up 30 next week to the saints than we can start to worry.

Who was predicting that the defense would be better? That's just crazy; it was unlikely before Hightower went out, and once Hightower's out they're clearly worse. To go over the major losses, let's start with Chris Long, Jabaal Sheard, and Rob Ninkovich. Any reasonable fan should have foreseen that it would be a problem to lose 3 of the top 4 DEs, and have the potential replacements end up injured or cut, that'll create a huge and exploitable weakness on defense. We're starting a guy at DE who wouldn't have cracked the rotation at all last year. Anyone who predicted that the defense would be better after cutting Ealy and losing Rivers is pretty dumb, to be blunt.

Beyond that, Hightower was a huge loss. Any projection suggesting that our defense was going to be good did so on the assumption that he'd be on the field, and for most of last night he wasn't. He's either our best or second best defensive player, depending on how you feel about McCourty (I rank McCourty over him, but Hightower's damn good). And just as importantly, we have nothing behind him. The dropoff from Hightower to his replacement was enormous. I won't count Ryan as a loss since Gilmore is an upgrade, although he did make a mistake last night that we paid dearly for and that I suspect was the result of being new to the defense.

 

[supafly]

I wonder if the uptick in deeper passes was by design (the game plan and play calling), or more due to circumstances (KC doing a good job of coverage on short passes, getting away with holding at the line of scrimmage, Edelman unavailable and then Amendola's injury, playing from behind, etc.)

It had to have been the latter, at least in my opinion.

What I saw was mainly desperation heaves, much in the same way that they'd normally start to target the RBs when nothing else was working (AFCCG loss at Denver + SB last yr).

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

Who was predicting that the defense would be better? That's just crazy; it was unlikely before Hightower went out, and once Hightower's out they're clearly worse. To go over the major losses, let's start with Chris Long, Jabaal Sheard, and Rob Ninkovich. Any reasonable fan should have foreseen that it would be a problem to lose 3 of the top 4 DEs, and have the potential replacements end up injured or cut, that'll create a huge and exploitable weakness on defense. We're starting a guy at DE who wouldn't have cracked the rotation at all last year. Anyone who predicted that the defense would be better after cutting Ealy and losing Rivers is pretty dumb, to be blunt.

Beyond that, Hightower was a huge loss. Any projection suggesting that our defense was going to be good did so on the assumption that he'd be on the field, and for most of last night he wasn't. He's either our best or second best defensive player, depending on how you feel about McCourty (I rank McCourty over him, but Hightower's damn good). And just as importantly, we have nothing behind him. The dropoff from Hightower to his replacement was enormous. I won't count Ryan as a loss since Gilmore is an upgrade, although he did make a mistake last night that we paid dearly for and that I suspect was the result of being new to the defense.

Again if they give up 30 next week then hit the panic button. Last night was an aberration.

 

[ViperGTS]

Another voice speaks up. Whatever is wrong in that locker room needs to be fixed. How that happens..I don't know.

 

[luuked]

Tell me the guys we lost on defense last year that we are missing this season? This defense was predicted to be much better with the acquisitions! Last night was an aberration that you just can't exactly explain. If this team gives up 30 next week to the saints than we can start to worry.

Are you new ? What you have seen yesterday is exactly how the teams have been looking for the most part in the last 5-6 years in September. The only difference to most other years was the result of the game, but vanilla defenses and slow starting offenses are pretty frequent.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

Are you new ? What you have seen yesterday is exactly how the teams have been looking for the most part in the last 5-6 years in September. The only difference to most other years was the result of the game, but vanilla defenses and slow starting offenses are pretty frequent.

Dude my point's that people are going crazy over one lousy night! This defense will be a lot better next week. You can book it!!

 

[NG Pats Fan]

Who was predicting that the defense would be better? That's just crazy; it was unlikely before Hightower went out, and once Hightower's out they're clearly worse. To go over the major losses, let's start with Chris Long, Jabaal Sheard, and Rob Ninkovich. Any reasonable fan should have foreseen that it would be a problem to lose 3 of the top 4 DEs, and have the potential replacements end up injured or cut, that'll create a huge and exploitable weakness on defense. We're starting a guy at DE who wouldn't have cracked the rotation at all last year. Anyone who predicted that the defense would be better after cutting Ealy and losing Rivers is pretty dumb, to be blunt.

Beyond that, Hightower was a huge loss. Any projection suggesting that our defense was going to be good did so on the assumption that he'd be on the field, and for most of last night he wasn't. He's either our best or second best defensive player, depending on how you feel about McCourty (I rank McCourty over him, but Hightower's damn good). And just as importantly, we have nothing behind him. The dropoff from Hightower to his replacement was enormous. I won't count Ryan as a loss since Gilmore is an upgrade, although he did make a mistake last night that we paid dearly for and that I suspect was the result of being new to the defense.

Too bad geneo grissom turned out to be an abomination of a pick..we could have really used a hit on a DE there.

Listen I thought we would be a better D because

- much better secondary with Gilmore instead of Ryan
- flowers, brown making a year three jump
- adding Harris to our LB corps
- adding Ealy as starting DE

Long was a role player
Sheard got benched last year
Nink was slowing down physically

I figured they would be replaced easily

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

Too bad geneo grissom turned out to be an abomination of a pick..we could have really used a hit on a DE there.

Listen I thought we would be a better D because

- much better secondary with Gilmore instead of Ryan
- flowers, brown making a year three jump
- adding Harris to our LB corps
- adding Ealy as starting DE

Long was a role player
Sheard got benched last year
Nink was slowing down physically

I figured they would be replaced easily

I didn't know the season ended last night. They had one bad night. Next week you will be singing a different tune.

 

[Tony2046]

Too bad geneo grissom turned out to be an abomination of a pick..we could have really used a hit on a DE there.

Listen I thought we would be a better D because

- much better secondary with Gilmore instead of Ryan
- flowers, brown making a year three jump
- adding Harris to our LB corps
- adding Ealy as starting DE

Long was a role player
Sheard got benched last year
Nink was slowing down physically

I figured they would be replaced easily

Same here. I thought and still do think improving the secondary will pay dividends for the front seven although it didn't show last night.
A lot of what I'm looking mistake wise seems to be more of a schematic issue although it wouldn't surprise me if we saw some personnel changes.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

Same here. I thought and still do think improving the secondary will pay dividends for the front seven although it didn't show last night.
A lot of what I'm looking mistake wise seems to be more of a schematic issue although it wouldn't surprise me if we saw some personnel changes.

What would be those personnel changes for you?

 

[ViperGTS]

What would be those personnel changes for you?

Move Hightower back to the middle. That's his strength and you can move him to the edge once in a while. Marsh can play the edge in my opinion next week just fine.

This will allow them to use Richards as a hybrid if they choose. Also, bumping Butler and Wises' snap counts to 40-50 percent is critical. When they played, things happened.

 

[Tony2046]

What would be those personnel changes for you?

I should have worded that differently but I wasn't singling out any particular player for bad play or anything.

Watching the film I got the feeling the Pats may have been better off having one less safety on the field and one more LB/DE hybrid.

A lot of the run plays whether up the middle or outside always seemed to have a big body on a small body.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

Move Hightower back to the middle. That's his strength and you can move him to the edge once in a while. Marsh can play the edge in my opinion next week just fine.

This will allow them to use Richards as a hybrid if they choose. Also, bumping Butler and Wises' snap counts to 40-50 percent is critical. When they played, things happened.

Agree except about marsh. He is a good special teams player and high effort player on the line..but he lacks explosiveness and athleticism. He can't pass rush, he won't Win one on one battles. I prefer wise off the edge. Marsh as a role player

 

[Hammer of Thor]

Another voice speaks up. Whatever is wrong in that locker room needs to be fixed. How that happens..I don't know.

Remember that amazingly enough, 1/3 of the current team wasn't on the 2016 team. Crazy that turnover in the NFL happens that fast.

On offense in particular: Cooks, Allen, Gilislee, Burkhead, and Dorsett are the new guys who were active last night (Croston and Hollister were inactive). Rest of the offense had guys who played last year. Certainly possible some of the returning players had this attitude, but seems more reasonable to me that it's the new guys.

We've already heard Allen make comments about how much harder it is here than in Indy.

Might be an external perception, which is echoed by Solder's comments. Other players see the Patriots, see them winning, are excited to join the team, and put in the same effort as they did in the past -- without realizing that it's all the extra effort that the Pats do that make them win. And maybe they haven't been putting in the extra effort that the veterans and coaches expect?

I'm remembering Stephon Gilmore's comment during the summer - "My people are finally going to get to see me on TV." Maybe there's an attitude of expectation - that they're going to a winning team and will be able to showcase themselves. Instead of realizing that the players work their asses off to be a winner, and it's not about showcasing. Jerel Worthy gave Gilmore a nice ribbing today - and I don't blame him, I would have done the same thing too: "At least we got to see my dawg Gilmore on tv tho."

I'm not saying it's Gilmore specifically, or any of the specific guys on offense that I listed. But it's clearly *someone* or *someones* that got the offense in particular pissed off. Let's hope they can be whipped into shape quickly.

 

[Tony2046]

Agree except about marsh. He is a good special teams player and high effort player on the line..but he lacks explosiveness and athleticism. He can't pass rush, he won't Win one on one battles. I prefer wise off the edge. Marsh as a role player

I agree with the Wise comment but I think it's too early to judge Marsh.