NFL Appeal oral arguments thread

[the Patriot]

Apologies if this has already been asked, but any possible way the Supreme Court grants review of this case if the appeals court reinstates the suspension? What are Brady's options? He can't let the league office win.

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

I have no idea of what the specific background of YOUGOTMOSSED is. Generalizing any profession - lawyers, doctors, police, military or otherwise (with their own ethical/professional standards) - is ridiculous and ignorant. If you spend any time on this planet, then understand there are good and bad people, honorable and dishonorable, in every profession (including your own, if you have a profession). I have seen all types in actual practice in real courts. If you haven't met these people in fashioning some generalization, then I would suggest you keep your opinion to yourself because you sound completely clueless. Travel a bit and learn professions are not honorable by nature. The people who work those professions earn the right to call themselves honorable by how they conduct themselves every day. There endeth the lesson of the day.

I have worked for federal judges in the Second Circuit and Fifth Circuit (those encompass multiple states, not just some single court in NY). I have seen the disciplinary committees and the results. The rules are in place, and are enforced (happy to provide links for those google challenged souls who cannot find the published information from many state and federal courts). I have no clue what this State NY "broken system" is, because I have no context for his background or experience in making that claim. YOUGOTMOSSED cites 1 complaint and states nothing happened, then offers theories as to why that system doesn't work. I would submit that is a pretty small sample size for such a sweeping generalization.

And for the record, I stated in my reply to you, with reference to the actual ethical standard (candor), that there are penalties for dishonesty to courts, both license (rules of professional responsibility) and money (court sanctions). You asked me about the specific argument in Brady's case, and I explained why that would be challenging under the facts of this case and specific to a court order. As stated also, violations of professional responsibility are raised to committees, not courts, and have no bearing on the decision in court. I never stated that could not be done because that was not what you asked me to explain.

I don't have enough personal interaction with CA2 to comment but, to be honest, I wasn't terribly impressed with what I saw in the transcript.

Sounds like you had a very positive experience in your time with CA2. Try working with judges in Kings Supreme for awhile. Your outlook on the state of the NY judiciary may be somewhat less rosy afterwards.

 

[letekro]

I understand that but if wells found no guilt goodell could not have penalized the patriots.
Perhaps you want to blame goodell for hiring wells so he would fake the report but that still means wells has to fake it.

As I have said from day 1,Wells was hired to write a report that would benefit his client. If he had been hired by team Brady, he wouldve reached he opposite conclusion. I dont understand why this is Wells's fault, and it shows profound naivete to suggest that it is. If you have a business and a client pays you, do you set out to hurt the client?? The NFL wouldve looked like clowns if it paid for a $5 million report that said "yeah, atmospheric pressure." The independence nonsense that was spewed by the league and Wells was never taken seriously by any one familiar with the legal industy.

 

[Nehalem]

Are you seriously telling me that if the wells report found the deflation was solely due to weather that the patriots and Brady would have been penalized?

Why not? The Wells Report said the Patriots organization was unaware of what happened, but the league still fine the team $1m and striped multiple draft picks.

And Brady still destroyed his phone. Which Goodell said was a critical reason for upholding his suspension.

So pretty much never overestimate the "integrity" of the league.

 

[Mack Herron]

Interesting news out of NYC:

NFL Players Association executive directorDeMaurice Smith said, after more than a year of fighting and litigation over how the NFL investigates and metes out punishment to its players, league officials and the union are moving closer to a deal that would involve Commissioner Roger Goodell giving up power over off-the-field player discipline.

NFL, Union Closer to Deal Stripping Roger Goodell of Discipline Power

 

[DaBruinz]

well you not seeing it done is anecdotal but if its not done much then its a rather hollow ethical obligation. In the Brady case the lies are repeated from the first case and they were exposed for that. Now they repeat them. Apparently they measured it an acceptable risk. If they get away with it I'll have to conclude that its indeed hollow

Two lawyers, friends of the court, have already stated that they would be filing the proper paperwork to show that Clement lied to the court. The two lawyers are Steph Stradley and Professor Robert Blecker. It should be noted that Blecker also filed an amicus brief on behalf of the NFLPA with the 2CA.

Clement is obligated to also file the proper paperwork. If he doesn't, then he can and probably will be brought before the court. Not sure why you are harping on this so long after the fact. Especially when it's been mentioned in this thread several times that Stradley and Blecker would be filing against Clement.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Two lawyers, friends of the court, have already stated that they would be filing the proper paperwork to show that Clement lied to the court. The two lawyers are Steph Stradley and Professor Robert Blecker. It should be noted that Blecker also filed an amicus brief on behalf of the NFLPA with the 2CA.

Clement is obligated to also file the proper paperwork. If he doesn't, then he can and probably will be brought before the court. Not sure why you are harping on this so long after the fact. Especially when it's been mentioned in this thread several times that Stradley and Blecker would be filing against Clement.

Appellate judges get amicus briefs all the time in cases. Whether they read them is another matter...

 

[archstanton543]

Appellate judges get amicus briefs all the time in cases. Whether they read them is another matter...

Well, this is kind of a high profile case, so I think they'll take a gander at them.

 

[BTTA]

He couldn't take away picks and suspend Brady if the wells report was honest and concluded nothing happened but science.

Are you seriously telling me that if the wells report found the deflation was solely due to weather that the patriots and Brady would have been penalized?

Couldn't and wouldn't are two entirely different questions. He could penalize the Patriots anything he wanted, under the current rules. Would he, if he'd been given a different report? No one knows but him.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Well, this is kind of a high profile case, so I think they'll take a gander at them.

Honestly, based on the questions some of them asked, it seems clear at least 2 of the judges limited themselves to the NFL and NFLPA briefs only, taking components in the NFL brief as fact

Their clerks surely read everything and one can only hope that they've cornered their bosses and encouraged them to read certain amicus filings, just to give them the chance to avoid looking stupid

Now in general judges will decide whatever the hell they want and not care what people think (at least in places where they're not elected) so if they think Brady is guilty they'll find a way to punish him - but they'll really be looking like fools for doing what Goodell did - ignore the Laws of Physics

Clement lying to them is just the opportunity the judges need to save face and change their tone from the rhetoric of the hearing - and frankly I don't quite know how they can trust ANYTHING the NFL says now that they were caught blatantly lying - and this after Goodell is appropriately chastized by Judge Barbara Jones and Judge Berman for lying to the court too...

Clement may indeed have jumped the shark here. We shall see

 

[Ring 6]

Couldn't and wouldn't are two entirely different questions. He could penalize the Patriots anything he wanted, under the current rules. Would he, if he'd been given a different report? No one knows but him.

How do you penalize a team when your independent investigation says they did absolutely nothing wrong? I get the goodell hate but it's just not reality to suggest he could penalize a team proven innocent.

 

[ViperGTS]

How do you penalize a team when your independent investigation says they did absolutely nothing wrong? I get the goodell hate but it's just not reality to suggest he could penalize a team proven innocent.

Just watched the Duke Lacrosse documentary. One can only hope that one day something like that comes up about Deflatagate. Obviously the situations in relation to severity aren't close, however Deflategate is much more nefarious in nature.

 

[PrairiePat]

The team wasn't punished for the supposedly deflated footballs. They were punished for non cooperation during the investigation. It's a total crock, of course, but theoretically the team penalty is not tied to the actual result of the investigation.

 

[Ring 6]

The team wasn't punished for the supposedly deflated footballs. They were punished for non cooperation during the investigation. It's a total crock, of course, but theoretically the team penalty is not tied to the actual result of the investigation.

That's not correct. The wells report found that it was more likely than not that patriot employees defeated footballs.

 

[RayClay]

How do you penalize a team when your independent investigation says they did absolutely nothing wrong? I get the goodell hate but it's just not reality to suggest he could penalize a team proven innocent.

You expected $Wells$ might say "I've proven Brady and the Patriots were completely innocent and did absolutely nothing wrong.

Really? Seriously?

 

[Ring 6]

You expected $Wells$ might say "I've proven Brady and the Patriots were completely innocent and did absolutely nothing wrong.

Really? Seriously?

If he did an honest investigation he would have.

That's the point. If wells behaved honestly there would have been nothing to penalize the patriots for. Remember this discussion started when a poster defended wells.

 

[RayClay]

If the league was honest, there wouldn't have needed to be an investigation.

Is someone suggesting any of the owners, commish, writers, Wells etc. are honest in this affair?

Wells was hired to do a hit, I don't know what honesty has to do with it. It's only because the persecution is so ridiculous, that he had to make up the generally aware, more probable than not bull, because, as a professional liar for hire, he knew he couldn't sell that he had actual proof of anything.

Of course, the commish changed that anyway, because he's not a good liar and doesn't care, he's a dictator and the owners rumpswab.

If anything, Wells didn't lie enough, or well enough, for his boss.

 

[DaBruinz]

Appellate judges get amicus briefs all the time in cases. Whether they read them is another matter...

These are not Amicus briefs. They are filings informing the court that Clement lied. And they are obligated to review them. .

 

[Ring 6]

If the league was honest, there wouldn't have needed to be an investigation.

Is someone suggesting any of the owners, commish, writers, Wells etc. are honest in this affair?

Wells was hired to do a hit, I don't know what honesty has to do with it. It's only because the persecution is so ridiculous, that he had to make up the generally aware, more probable than not bull, because, as a professional liar for hire, he knew he couldn't sell that he had actual proof of anything.

Of course, the commish changed that anyway, because he's not a good liar and doesn't care, he's a dictator and the owners rumpswab.

If anything, Wells didn't lie enough, or well enough, for his boss.

You've lost me. You conclude that wells is a dishonest person so that means he isn't to blame for anything because he acted dishonestly.

The point of the discussion was that if wells conducted his investigation fairly and with integrity the patriots would have been found innocent.

I'm not sure how saying goodell asked him to please trump up phony charges exonerates wells actions.

 

[IllegalContact]

I'm not sure how saying goodell asked him to please trump up phony charges exonerates wells actions.

Wells did what his client told him to do.....which was to make a pile of **** look like something else......given what Wells had to work with, he did a halfway decent job for his boss......it also helps that he looks like snidely whiplash