My problem with Bill Belichick as a coach

[voluntarysaftey]

BB two big issues are:
1. Stubbornness, especially when it comes to player punishment.
I highly doubt BB's style of punishment leads to more motivated players.
It helps no one except BB's ego to sit Butler the entire sb after he was in on 99% of plays during the season for what might be distractions or sickness; and if you are going to do that, the team should be informed so they can effectively prepare. The SB is not a time to thru in additional 'tests' for the team.

Likewise with benching Welker for a series over jokes. Deal with it by telling him that wasn't appropriate, not remaining silent and then pulling him, and still not talking about it.

2. Lack of media awareness. Like it or not, media interactions are part of his job and having a media that likes you, even if you are an a-hole like Parcells, is helpful.
Also sticking up for your players. Imagine if Brady retired early cause if his issues with BB. If we had any other star QB, that QB probably would've demanded a trade by now or not resigned.

BB is one of, if not the, greatest football coach of all time, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't demand more -- just like he demands more of his players.

 

[1960Pats]

B.B. has made some mistakes and drafted some awful players. He’s also made some mistakes and signed some really awful free agents, he’s made some ****ty calls, and let guys walk he shouldn’t have. But, B.B. has also signed some great free agents, made some phenomenal trades, made gutsy cuts, and had some pretty dang good draft picks. It is what it is. Neither view point is wrong.

However, one viewpoint that can’t be disputed, is that because of this man, we have been the greatest football franchise of the last nearly 20 years. The bad, the good, the incredible. I’ll take it!!

My opinion is that Brady is more important to the success of this team than Belichick. Belichick himself says that it's a player's game and he's correct.

 

[n1997y]

my problem with @BobDigital posts. They're too long!

That's not the biggest problem with this post.

RayClay has already done a good job of pointing out the biggest flaw in its logic.

 

[RobertWeathers]

My opinion is that Brady is more important to the success of this team than Belichick. Belichick himself says that it's a player's game and he's correct.

BB is being modest.

I think your opinion is based on the premise Tom was here before BB.

BB drafted Tom, kept him as the 4th QB, developed him, builds the roster annually and puts him in a position to be successful. Tom did the rest and is deserving of a ton of credit in maximizing his potential.

At a minimum, the credit is equal.

 

[1960Pats]

BB is being modest.

I think your opinion is based on the premise Tom was here before BB.

BB drafted Tom, kept him as the 4th QB, developed him, builds the roster annually and puts him in a position to be successful. Tom did the rest is deserving of a ton of credit to maximizing his potential.

At a minimum, the credit is equal.

Even if BB is being modest it doesn't mean that he's incorrect.

My opinion is the same as it has been forever, that coaches don't win games, players do. Coaches can only lose them. I think we've seen that with many other teams in the NYFL. Yes, BB can put them in a better position to win but it's the players who have to get the job done.

There's a thread lying around here somewhere where we discussed the % of importance to the Pats success of Brady, Belichick and Kraft. If I did it now I'd go with that same order at 55-35-10.

Thanks again for a respectful response to one of my posts.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Even if BB is being modest it doesn't mean that he's incorrect.

My opinion is the same as it has been forever, that coaches don't win games, players do. Coaches can only lose them. I think we've seen that with many other teams in the NYFL. Yes, BB can put them in a better position to win but it's the players who have to get the job done.

There's a thread lying around here somewhere where we discussed the % of importance to the Pats success of Brady, Belichick and Kraft. If I did it now I'd go with that same order at 55-35-10.

Thanks again for a respectful response to one of my posts.

I try to be respectful. We have a different PoV. That's what sports boards are for!

I look at it as akin to building and running a company.

If you have talented employees but the CEO is a walking clusterf**k , the company will fail. If the CEO is great but the employees stink, he'll just go out and get better talent and ultimately settle on the right people.

With that said Tom Brady wasn't picked off a tree

 

[1960Pats]

I try to be respectful. We have a different PoV. That's what sports boards are for!

I look at it as akin to building and running a company.

If you have talented employees but the CEO is a walking clusterf**k , the company will fail. If the CEO is great but the employees stink, he'll just go out and get better talent and ultimately settle on the right people.

With that said Tom Brady wasn't picked off a tree

I remember the Brady/Bledsoe wars very well. At the time I was an AOLe and was arguing with the Bledsoe fans about how Brady did many of the little things much better. Like everyone else though, I couldn't imagine how great Brady would become.

We've truly been blessed that the perfect storm (Brady/Belichick) blew into town 18 years ago. The rest of the NYFL has been feeling it ever since.

It's a great discussion to have.

 

[n1997y]

Comments:

- As mentioned previously, I do miss the aggressive defenses we had in the Carroll era. More comfortable to watch people shooting the gaps trying to blow up plays vs. bend-not-break D that stiffens up in the RZ.

....

Tightening the generic question: does this mean you'd rather have Pete Carroll as your coach, instead of Bill Belichick?

Thing is, you can't get just part of any coach's style, you have to take the whole package. You get Carroll's player-favorable lax discipline along with his turning the defense loose for boom or bust plays. You get Rex Ryan's swagger and attitude along with his utter inability to focus on results.

I see Carroll's aggressive D as part of his player management style. He's turning his players loose to make big plays on D because it's a big feel-good moment even if the times they miss hurt worse than the times they hit. I'll take BB's results-oriented approach, as it's the bottom line that matters not a momentary peak before the ultimate loss.

 

[RayClay]

BB two big issues are:
1. Stubbornness, especially when it comes to player punishment.
I highly doubt BB's style of punishment leads to more motivated players.
It helps no one except BB's ego to sit Butler the entire sb after he was in on 99% of plays during the season for what might be distractions or sickness; and if you are going to do that, the team should be informed so they can effectively prepare. The SB is not a time to thru in additional 'tests' for the team.

Likewise with benching Welker for a series over jokes. Deal with it by telling him that wasn't appropriate, not remaining silent and then pulling him, and still not talking about it.

2. Lack of media awareness. Like it or not, media interactions are part of his job and having a media that likes you, even if you are an a-hole like Parcells, is helpful.
Also sticking up for your players. Imagine if Brady retired early cause if his issues with BB. If we had any other star QB, that QB probably would've demanded a trade by now or not resigned.

BB is one of, if not the, greatest football coach of all time, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't demand more -- just like he demands more of his players.

So, other coaches motivate players better than the goat? Motivate them to do what? Obviously not to better win games, divisions and Super Bowls. Astounding.

 

[RayClay]

My opinion is that Brady is more important to the success of this team than Belichick. Belichick himself says that it's a player's game and he's correct.

I don't want Brady coaching the team. This thread is hilarious, by the way.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

I'll never understand wtf BB was doing week 17 2015 in a win and clinch HFA against a 5 win Dolphin team. It was like he did not want to win the game. I know the team was really dinged up but HFA VS the Broncos was crucial.

That one was a puzzler.

Either treat it like a pre-season game and pull the starters early after getting them some work, or put out a real effort to win the game. Either one is defensible. But I did not and still do not understand the weird in-between thing they did in that game.

 

[Triumph]

• The Patriots haven't hit on a first round pick since 2013 (Jones, Hightower)
• The Patriots have only hit on one second round pick since 2012, and that was a QB (JAG)

(If I missed someone in the above, my apologies, but I was posting quickly from memory and not double checking)

If you want to ***** about BB, that's where to start.

BB screwed the team out of a SB win last year, for whatever reason, and he's reportedly allowed his QB, the G.O.A.T., to become disillusioned.

If you want to ***** about BB the coach, that's where to start.


I hate that the team is little more than a bunch of automatons when it comes to public commentary, but that goes beyond BB. That's also a product of the NFL fining players for things it doesn't like, the fans screaming at players who say something they don't like, and the media/politically inclined railing at players who say something they don't like.

And, it's not as if Talib became a withering flower in New England.

Mitchell was on his way to being a keeper. How are the Pats to know that he would suffer a serious injury? Derek Rivers was also injured. Youve already thrown dirt on him as a bust.

The Pats have hit on lowers picks like White. Remember him? Edelman was a freekin 7th round pick. I dont see anybody complaining about him.

Butler did something to be benched. We will find out what the truth is one day. Blaming Belichick is all too typical in the no accountability climate we find ourselves in today. I will never buy into the fallacy that BB deliberately sabotaged the team by benching Butler. Nonsense talk.

 

[n1997y]

My opinion is that Brady is more important to the success of this team than Belichick. Belichick himself says that it's a player's game and he's correct.

Disagreed, based on BB's record in games without Brady over the past ten years.

 

[Triumph]

My opinion is that Brady is more important to the success of this team than Belichick. Belichick himself says that it's a player's game and he's correct.

Without BB there is no NE dynasty.

His game management alone speaks for itself. Clock management is steller. BB delegates responsibility to his coordinators. Not ever HC does that. BB has a coaching staff ready to advance into upper positions upon existing coaches leaving for their own gig.

The team has depth ready to play. The Pats made it to the Super Bowl after losing its best LB in Hightower. Ninko retired and he was a stud. Still BBs teams dont miss a beat.

 

[n1997y]

Talent is talent, and as of now, we are lacking talent on defense. It isn't a stretch to think that taking DeMarcus Lawrence would have significantly eased our pass rushing woes, as compared to taking Easley. Lawrence was taken in the 30s as well. They were similar talent-wise. Is pass rusher a position that being a superstar on the Cowboys can take you to anything less than a solid starter on another team? I don't think so. QB sure. RB to an extent. But not pass rusher.

Hindsight isn't an argument you can use. NFL scouts are expected to go into the draft with a clear plan of how talented some of their team's draft picks are (1st, 2nd, 3rd round at least). Teams don't guess when they draft that high - they have a reason to pick certain players based on their scouting and even down near the bottom of each round, there's still plenty of talent left. You suddenly don't become a star in the NFL if you don't show flashes of it in college, or to other NFL teams. Back when we took Aaron Dobson, Keenan Allen wasn't a random player. He may not have been as dominant as he is now, but he was likely very good, and had a skillset superior to Dobson (Allen was taken a few picks after Dobson). For a team that picks very low in each round, scouts need to be able to be able to understand who the good players are, and who the not so great players are.

[...]
But at the bottom of the first round, second round, etc. there's serious talent that we miss out on - talent that could become high end starters for us. Sure, picking low isn't ideal, but we can still get what we need there - if the right players are identified.

So much wrong with this post it's hard to know where to start. I'll just comment on two aspects.

First, it's hilarious to find "hindsight isn't an argument you can use" in the middle of arguments using hindsight to claim other draft picks would have been better choices. Point is, no draft pick is a sure bet, most are flops so the only way to be sure who is the best pick is using hindsight.

Second, about flashes of talent in college, this is looking at it backwards as well as in hindsight. The question about who will be a star in the NFL is not who has talent, every prospect in the draft has talent. The real question is which talented prospects will flame out and which will succeed. So all the arguments about X would have been a better pick for the Pats than Y because X is now a star and Y washed out are totally hindsight. Also, the Pats are drafting to find players who will succeed in their system,which is not synonymous with becoming an NFL star.

 

[mosi]

My opinion is that Brady is more important to the success of this team than Belichick. Belichick himself says that it's a player's game and he's correct.

I would agree that Brady is waaaaay more important than any coach. With that said, I think Belichick is head and shoulders above most coaches in the NFL. Although I do think 99% of them are complete idiots but still I think he is probably one of the best in the history of the game.

 

[primetime]

Belichick is the greatest coach of all-time, but it's fair to say that they haven't had a recent bumper draft class the way that they did in, say, 2003, that would round the team out with talent. I think there's a general lack of talent up and down the team, with a great coach and two players who are the best ever at their positions holding it together.

Losing the 1st round pick (the other one was far enough ago that it doesn't really matter now) and the complete waste that was Easley really screwed them too. Imagine if they had ended up with DeMarcus Lawrence and Myles Jack. Draft is a crapshoot, of course.

 

[grux]

The game (rules) have changed dramatically since the early years. Belichicks best defenses were more physical in the early years because the rules allowed for physical play. I go back and watch the three games to glory and some of the hits that were allowed back then would be penalized today. Defensive play is very limited in today's nfl.

I know this has been mentioned but the patriots draft position limits their chances of getting a franchise type defensive player. BB has to find diamonds in the rough or pay big free agent dollars.

BB the coach and GM makes mistakes. However, IMO he is excellent at finding players that fit his system and developing undrafted free agents. Our long history of success tells me we have the best GM/Coach in the league.

 

[luuked]

My opinion is the same as it has been forever, that coaches don't win games, players do. Coaches can only lose them. I think we've seen that with many other teams in the NYFL. Yes, BB can put them in a better position to win but it's the players who have to get the job done.

You are downplaying the importance of coaching and maintaining a winning culture way too much. You should rewatch DJY a few times to remind yourself how much effort goes into creating gameplans, finding weaknesses and trying to design mismatches.

The only reason Butler was in position to make the INT in SB49 is because the staff identified what the Seahawks liked to do in the endzone from tape, came up with a way to counter it and gave him (and others) reps in practice. So when it happened on the field he already knew exactly what to do.

I know that BB publicly has this humble schtick about coaches losing games and players winning but the reality is that most games in the NFL are won and lost on the practice field.

 

[ahmed]

BB's defenses, at least after 2004, have always been about playing the averages. He plays it safe and he bets on 2 things: sooner or later, the other team will make a mistake on offense and that our offense, i.e. Brady, will make less mistakes.

It only works because Brady is so great...good luck doing that with a top 15 QB