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Manning is more skilled than Brady? Please explain.


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I will try hard to avoid the who is better argument, because that is not the thread. So, the value of winning, the value of stats and how they are attained is not the point.
I think that is you are discerning between the skills of the 2 you have to look closely in many areas and there are a couple that are obvious.
Accuracy. I believe Brady is more accurate most of the time (i.e hitting players in stride, fitting into tight spots, etc) yet Manning is more accurate if you define accuracy by the number of or absence of bad passes. In other words, on almost all passes, Brady is more 'pinpoint' accurate, but a little bit more often Brady misses the mark altogether. (That could be impacted by the indoor/outdoor effect as well).
Decision making. I think it is clear that for most of their careers, Manning pushed the ball up the field, and Brady took fewer chances. Therein is the +/- That Manning gets a higher rating in aggressiveness, but Brady gets a higher rating in protecting the football. In 2 different cases one could be more important than the other, and vice-versa. It is extremely interesting to note, however that this has almost completely reversed over the last few seasons, with Brady becoming much more aggressive and Manning much less aggressive and almost unwilling to go down the field. Perhaps it is attributable to the changing of supporting casts with Moss in NE, and Manning no longer having Harrison, not having a great running game, and relying heavily on Dallas Clark.
Mobility. Again, plusses and minusses in different ways. Brady may be the best ever at moving within the pocket to buy time, but Manning is better at escaping tacklers, or scrambling for yards although neither are close to good at that.

Leadership. I think this a clearcut advantage for Brady. Manning has had a few instances (the liquored up kicker, the complaining about coaching changes) where he has acted as one of the crowd instead of as the leader. But more importantly, IMO, it is blatantly evident that whenever anything goes wrong in a game Manning acts frustrated, almost ready to blame anyone he can. We've all seen the look whether its directed at the officials, his receiver, an OL, whatever it may be, but that is not IMO being a steady reliable leader who will overcome adversity and be accountable to his own failings.
Clutch. There is simply anm overwhelming amount of evidence illustrating the difference between each QB in routine situations and games and in the clutch. I won't go into it all, but the skill that say play your best when it matters most, heavily, heavily favors Brady.
 
This thread has gone beyond pointless. Ask the average Joe on the street which QB you would rather leading your team in the playoffs, let alone the Superbowl and I am sure most people would answer Tom Brady. Why you ask? Because the regular season counts for nothing. January and February are where legacies are made.

Regular season success is nice. Post-season success is the ultimate.

:agree:

10 ch
 
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...long post refuting every point I made

Thanks. I made my points and you made yours.

I'm a Peyton fan (despite also being a Patriots fan) and always have been. That being said, I think that the specifics I shared are worthy of significantly more thoughtful consideration (e.g. Manning having a lower rating on turf and a lower rating on grass is to you "really stretching it") than you are giving them so I'll happily leave you to your thoughts.
 
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So the fact that Manning has had an all pro WR core around him for his entore career, and has played his entire career in a dome (and struggled in outdoor games) has no bearing on the statistical discrepancy?

The first full season Brady had with weapons comparable to Peyton's, he blew the doors off the league even without the dome factor.

The only reason why it's even a question at this point is because Peyton was drafted higher and was hyped coming out of college and started in the league earlier than Brady did.

I guarantee you that Brady has a much bigger impact on the rest of the team than Manning does.

Not to be argumentative, but who has had the better defense throughout their career. If you are only using talent on the offensive side of the ball that is a weak premise.

Also, the PATS won 11 games without Brady (only Miami's last place schedule stopped them from getting into the playoffs) while the Colts are a 5 (maybe)win team without Manning.
 
Not to be argumentative, but who has had the better defense throughout their career. If you are only using talent on the offensive side of the ball that is a weak premise.

Also, the PATS won 11 games without Brady (only Miami's last place schedule stopped them from getting into the playoffs) while the Colts are a 5 (maybe)win team without Manning.

Well, many people thought the Pats would be a 5 win team last year when Brady went down. The way Cassel played there is no way the Colts only win 5 with HIM in there in Mannings place.
Anyway, you cant really use "I think the Colts would lose more if he got hurt" as a factual argument.
 
Thanks. I made my points and you made yours.

I'm a Peyton fan (despite also being a Patriots fan) and always have been. That being said, I think that the specifics I shared are worthy of significantly more thoughtful consideration (e.g. Manning having a lower rating on turf and a lower rating on grass is to you "really stretching it") than you are giving them so I'll happily leave you to your thoughts.

Yeah, that's pretty far from stretching it. Of course stats are going to be affected when one guy plays most of his games in a dome, and the other plays most of his games outside, many of them in the winter in New England. Remove that factor, and Brady has a better QB rating. How's that stretching it?
 
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Not quite on topic, but it is Brady/Manning, and with all the comments about Brady winning because of defense, I needed to post this.

Manning has been on 4 teams that were ranked top 7 in scoring defense.
Brady has been on 5.

Brady's reg season w/l record in those years is 67-11
Mannings is 49-15

In the postseason in thoe years
Brady 13-2
Manning 0-4

So for all of those arguments can someone please explain why when Manning had a top 7 defense (and there was a 1 and a 2 in there) he was one and done every year?
And he has had 4 of those season while Brady had 5, resulting in 3 SB Championships as well.
 
Not to be argumentative, but who has had the better defense throughout their career. If you are only using talent on the offensive side of the ball that is a weak premise.
2008 - Colts - 11
2007 - Pats - 4, Colts - 3
2006 - Pats - 6, Colts - 21
2005 - Pats - 26, Colts - 11
2004 - Pats - 9, Colts - 29
2003 - Pats - 7, Colts - 11
2002 - Pats - 23, Colts - 8
2001 - Pats - 24, Colts - 29
2000 - Colts - 21
1999 - Colts - 15
1998 - Colts - 29

Patriot's defense with Tom Brady average rank was 14th.
Colt's defense with Manning average rank was 17th.

So not really much of a difference.
 
Lots of interesting points. Let me add a couple:

1) Brady has improved his game year after year since entering the league. He is as technically sound a QB as I have ever seen...and he was hardly that when he entered the league. Manning had the goods right from the start and has largely rested on his laurels, outside of the obvious mental gains from experience. Manning is 33 and clearly showing signs of decline (won't argue that here since I've done that in other threads). Brady is a little over a year younger and pre-injury was just getting stronger.

2) Brady and Manning have evolved into different kinds of QBs, and as such require different kinds of receivers. Brady requires receivers to gain quick separation so he can make timely decisions and deliver the ball in stride. Manning (more often than not) throws to an open spot on the field, requiring his receivers to get to that spot on time. Think of the Colts' receivers as frisbee-catching dogs. Manning is the best I've seen with these timing routes, but it places a huge burden on the receivers to deliver.

3) For the question of who is more valuable to their team, I don't think it is any contest. The entire Colts' identity revolves around Manning. Skill positions, blocking scheme, defensive strategy, game decisions, etc. They need Manning to play fast-break offense for everything else to click. They can still scrap together wins without Manning marching up and down the field (see last year), but it is hardly dominant and often pretty ugly. The Pats don't depend on Brady to play a particular way and have an overall team strategy that can adjust to a variety of conditions. Take out Brady and the Pats are still a playoff-caliber team. Take out Manning and the Colts are playing for draft position.
 
Did the way I went about it make you completely dismiss the totally fantastic playoff games that I showed Manning had, some of which his team lost?

That has never happened...
 
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That has never happened...

Colts have averaged 13.6 points per game in their 8 playoff losses with Manning at the helm.
It would seem you are correct.
 
What, like in 2000, when he posted a 121.4 QB rating, completing 72.7% of his passes for two TDs and 0 INTs in Indy's only playoff game? Do you figure that it's his fault the Colts lost that game?

2002, not so good.

2003, excellent in 2 of 3 games. Absolutely mind-blowing excellent...until he faced New England. First game, 158.3 rating...I'm not sure, but I don't think you can do better than that...5 TDs, 0 INTs, 84.6% completions, 377 yards. Second game, 138.8 rating, 73.3% completions for 304 yards, 3 TDs and 0 INTs. Then it all fell to sh*t in New England.

2004 - One game...excellent again statistically, although I don't know why he only attempted 10 passes. According to nfl.com, he completed 6 of those 10 passes though, and HALF of them were for touchdowns. 3 TDs and 0 INTs for a passer rating of 143.8. The Colts lost that game. Was it Manning's fault?

2005 - had one bad game in the playoffs. Pretty bad, actually.

2006 - didn't have the best postseason, but the Colts win the Super Bowl anyway. They came in as a Wild Card and benefited from their defense stepping up. Are you going to give him credit for winning this Super Bowl. Well, you should, if you are going to give Brady credit for winning three.

2007 - had a pretty good game, but his team lost. 118.5 QB rating.

2008 - good game. Manning completed 59.5% of his passes for 310 yards, a TD, and no INTs.


There you have Manning's postseason history. It's not the choke-job people make it out to be. And without Adam Vinatieri, Brady might not be labeled Mr. Perfect, or whatever the hell...

I don't know if this has been covered or not since I haven't had time to read the whole thread, but Brady set the playoff passer rating record vs Jacksonville in 2007 with a rating of 141.4
 
This would be the deciding factor on who is better is there were only one player on each team.

Ahhhhh, you do realize that you just jumped the shark..right?

If you are now arguing Peyton's dominance over Brady by highlighting the intrinsic value he brings to the team then you argument is flawed, completely flawed.

As you have just minimized the importance of win's vs. losses - you have so minimized ANY stat that you would want to compare to Brady.

As a not so smart man once say, "Hello! You PLAY TO WIN THE GAME".
 
i wouldn't

id want big ben


personally id take manning over ben, but the fact is we DO have brady and thats all anyone should really want as their qb.
 
Ahhhhh, you do realize that you just jumped the shark..right?

If you are now arguing Peyton's dominance over Brady by highlighting the intrinsic value he brings to the team then you argument is flawed, completely flawed.

As you have just minimized the importance of win's vs. losses - you have so minimized ANY stat that you would want to compare to Brady.

As a not so smart man once say, "Hello! You PLAY TO WIN THE GAME".

Yeah, thats so far over his head he cant even see it fly by.
 
I don't know if this has been covered or not since I haven't had time to read the whole thread, but Brady set the playoff passer rating record vs Jacksonville in 2007 with a rating of 141.4

Apparently, you didn't have the time to read the post you quoted, either. In it, I said that Manning had a perfect passer rating of 158.3 in a playoff game.

Look, everyone, you can bring up so many different variables. There are so many different things to it. The so-called experts don't agree that Manning is more skilled than Brady or that it's the other way around. On a Patriots board, there is a clear answer. On a Colts board, the answer is just as clear, only it's the opposite answer. It's an opinion, and you know what they say about opinions...they're like ass-holes, everyone's got one.

I'd take either one of these guys, but if I had my choice, I'd take Manning. I think he is more skilled than Brady...by how large a margin I couldn't say. Probably not my much. They are two different people and two different types of QB...You can respect that or not, and it wouldn't be any skin off my teeth. This has been an ongoing debate for a reason. Like most other people, the only proof I need are my own two eyes. I've been watching football for 30 years, and I know what I'm looking at.

I can respect it if other people think Brady is more skilled, and I expect the same courtesy in return when I choose Manning.

You always have to keep in mind that these opinions are something that you can't prove. That's why nobody is going to win the argument.
 
Barfalo Buffalo Brain is now a recognized life threatening disease
 
Jim Kelly perfected the end over end wobble duck...and of course the four of a kind super choke...Barfalo fans should NEVER try to talk about QB's
 
Apparently, you didn't have the time to read the post you quoted, either. In it, I said that Manning had a perfect passer rating of 158.3 in a playoff game.

Look, everyone, you can bring up so many different variables. There are so many different things to it. The so-called experts don't agree that Manning is more skilled than Brady or that it's the other way around. On a Patriots board, there is a clear answer. On a Colts board, the answer is just as clear, only it's the opposite answer. It's an opinion, and you know what they say about opinions...they're like ass-holes, everyone's got one.

I'd take either one of these guys, but if I had my choice, I'd take Manning. I think he is more skilled than Brady...by how large a margin I couldn't say. Probably not my much. They are two different people and two different types of QB...You can respect that or not, and it wouldn't be any skin off my teeth. This has been an ongoing debate for a reason. Like most other people, the only proof I need are my own two eyes. I've been watching football for 30 years, and I know what I'm looking at.

I can respect it if other people think Brady is more skilled, and I expect the same courtesy in return when I choose Manning.

You always have to keep in mind that these opinions are something that you can't prove. That's why nobody is going to win the argument.

Then why are you here?
 
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