Kraft Orchids Case - Prosecuters Want a Tug Rule?

[Ring 6]

Saw a joke on line this morning saying the patriots are now know as the payforits

 

[PatsSox363804]

It's funny that both the people Kraft supposedly propositioned have valid Masseuse Licenses from the State of Florida and one of the people was supposedly the owner of the facility. Kind of puts huge holes in the idea that Kraft was breaking the law and that the women were being sex-trafficked.

I’m not a lawyer but if the entire reason for the search warrant/surveillance was suspected human trafficking and then they find out none of the women were actually trafficked is that grounds to get the case thrown out? Just curious.

 

[Joker]

nah..."human trafficking!" is just the dog whistle for the media to begin their feeding frenzy....

 

[Deus Irae]

I’m not a lawyer but if the entire reason for the search warrant/surveillance was suspected human trafficking and then they find out none of the women were actually trafficked is that grounds to get the case thrown out? Just curious.

The warrant will hold up, or not, on its own merit. The underlying investigation allegations aren't dispositive.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Some part of me is nostalgic for the dawn of the internet days of USENET . "Tollbooth" Bob Jensen and his Jets blather. Bender and his Bills BS.

Not to mention Norazizam (I'm sure I got the spelling wrong). What team did he root for again?

 

[XLIX]

Some part of me is nostalgic for the dawn of the internet days of USENET . "Tollbooth" Bob Jensen and his Jets blather. Bender and his Bills BS.

I remember Jackass Jensen telling us all how the ‘01 Patriots “backed into the playoffs.”

Every move the Jets made was sheer genius according to that guy. Chad Pennington was nothing short of the next Montana.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

I remember Jackass Jensen telling us all how the ‘01 Patriots “backed into the playoffs.”

Every move the Jets made was sheer genius according to that guy. Chad Pennington was nothing short of the next Montana.

He wouldn't have been the next Montana, of course, but if he hadn't gotten injured the AFCE would have been rather more competitive.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Ok, so they pulled him over to ID the man on the tape. Great. Why not arrest him then if he was a suspect?

At that point, Kraft is a "person of interest" regarding the investigation of a crime. Cops can legally ID a person of interest without identifying him as a criminal or even notifying him that he is indeed a person of interest. They perhaps had been told that a guy who looked a lot like Kraft has entered the place, left the place, and what happened in-between was on tape.

What if Kraft later says "That's not me on tape! I'd never do that. I was nowhere near that place. There are lots of slightly stocky older white men in Florida who look like the person on that tape".

Well, they are ready for that precisely due to the stop. The cops then have a record of him being in the vicinity of the crime within minutes of the time stamp on the tapes. They have a record of him giving identification, a record of the licence number for the vehicle, an ID for the driver. It is game, set, and match for putting RK at the scene of the crime.

I am not a lawyer or a police officer, but to this citizen, the actions of the cops with respect to Kraft seem proper and justified.

I do have some concerns regarding the cops allowing the trafficking to continue for a month to gain a critical mass of big name johns in the bag. That's a tough call, though. You have to balance the need to stop the trafficking with the need to have sufficient evidence to nail the traffickers. This concern is a bit tangential to Kraft, though, since he has no known responsibility for the trafficking that was likely going on amongst other women working there.

 

[PatriotsReign]

As am I.

So we all agree this is being blown WAY out of proportion?

 

[PatsWSB47]

At that point, Kraft is a "person of interest" regarding the investigation of a crime. Cops can legally ID a person of interest without identifying him as a criminal or even notifying him that he is indeed a person of interest. They perhaps had been told that a guy who looked a lot like Kraft has entered the place, left the place, and what happened in-between was on tape.

What if Kraft later says "That's not me on tape! I'd never do that. I was nowhere near that place. There are lots of slightly stocky older white men in Florida who look like the person on that tape".

Well, they are ready for that precisely due to the stop. The cops then have a record of him being in the vicinity of the crime within minutes of the time stamp on the tapes. They have a record of him giving identification, a record of the licence number for the vehicle, an ID for the driver. It is game, set, and match for putting RK at the scene of the crime.

I am not a lawyer or a police officer, but to this citizen, the actions of the cops with respect to Kraft seem proper and justified.

I do have some concerns regarding the cops allowing the trafficking to continue for a month to gain a critical mass of big name johns in the bag. That's a tough call, though. You have to balance the need to stop the trafficking with the need to have sufficient evidence to nail the traffickers. This concern is a bit tangential to Kraft, though, since he has no known responsibility for the trafficking that was likely going on amongst other women working there.

I dont know the law so I can't debate whether or not a person of interest can be ID'd or not or what even what determines if someone is a person of interest. I did hear Mark Bertram say that the cameras were put in place the day before the first visit Kraft was charged for and he believes they knew he'd be there.....like they were waiting for a big fish before wrapping up the investigation. That doesn't let Kraft off the hook I don't think but it adds to the the mystery of how this case was handled by the police.

 

[patsfan13]

I remember that and SAR I being the doom and gloom (rational) jets fan.

Good Times.

 

[patsfan13]

Easterby was what amounts to the team chaplain. Not an x's and o's or conditioning coach. His main task this past season was to keep Gordon on the straight and narrow and we see how that turned out. Frankly, assuming he's Christian, if he left over this, good riddance. People are imperfect. He, of all people, should understand this.

Players loved the guy but yeah if he offended by BJ Bok K then f'em,right.

 

[patsfan13]

I’m not a lawyer but if the entire reason for the search warrant/surveillance was suspected human trafficking and then they find out none of the women were actually trafficked is that grounds to get the case thrown out? Just curious.

Not for the Johns, Prostitution still illegal and money exchanged hands after the BJ/tug $100/woman to be exact.

 

[Ring 6]

So we all agree this is being blown WAY out of proportion?

He’s a public figure so it’s going to get coverage.
Seems quite clear he is guilty so he will probably plead to a lesser offense and pay a fine.
You would have to explain in what way you are referring to that it is blown out of proportion for me to answer.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

I did hear Mark Bertram say that the cameras were put in place the day before the first visit Kraft was charged for and he believes they knew he'd be there.....like they were waiting for a big fish before wrapping up the investigation. That doesn't let Kraft off the hook I don't think but it adds to the the mystery of how this case was handled by the police.

I heard that the cameras were installed on Jan 15. Kraft then visited on Jan 19th & 20th. He just happened to go at the wrong time

 

[JJC]

Some part of me is nostalgic for the dawn of the internet days of USENET . "Tollbooth" Bob Jensen and his Jets blather. Bender and his Bills BS.

Wasn't there also a Dr. Dolphin troll.

I am not sure that they weren't all sock puppets of the same master?!

 

[Joker]

don't forget RayRay 19...."Sanchez..ELITE!! he'll win FIVE bowls!"

 

[Bill Lee]

This thread is terrible.

How terrible is it?

Well, I blocked Andy Johnson and it didn't get better, so it has to be terrible.

Lastly, Kraft put himself in this position. Not the LEO. Kraft's embarrassment is not a product of how the LEO executed a traffic stop rather it is from getting filmed receiving a rub and tug at an illegal brothel.

The genie is out of the bottle on Kraft's embarrassment and it isn't going back in. The real issue is the consequences of getting caught for receiving a rub and tug at an illegal brothel. Personally I think a good lawyer will be able to get the stop and the resulting evidence tossed, but I also don't think this ever sees court. First time offender Kraft will very probably end up with a clean record after paying some fines and maybe doing some community service, and then his fellow club members (err, owners) will also fine him and suspend him, and life will go on.

No it’s total crap. Putting a camera in front of people getting paid to screw (and then making further profit off it by selling the videos) doesn’t somehow make it better or more moral. If one is legal, the other should be legal, and vice versa.

It's not about betterness or morality it's about protecting public expression, which is one of those things we make young people fight wars for. Giving porn a get out of jail free card just shows how much we value public expression.

So going forward ... when responding to a post ...

Can we use the term "here's the rub"

From now on, every Patriots victory will be referred to as a "happy ending"!

 

[ivanvamp]

This thread is terrible.

How terrible is it?

Well, I blocked Andy Johnson and it didn't get better, so it has to be terrible.

The genie is out of the bottle on Kraft's embarrassment and it isn't going back in. The real issue is the consequences of getting caught for receiving a rub and tug at an illegal brothel. Personally I think a good lawyer will be able to get the stop and the resulting evidence tossed, but I also don't think this ever sees court. First time offender Kraft will very probably end up with a clean record after paying some fines and maybe doing some community service, and then his fellow club members (err, owners) will also fine him and suspend him, and life will go on.

It's not about betterness or morality it's about protecting public expression, which is one of those things we make young people fight wars for. Giving porn a get out of jail free card just shows how much we value public expression.

From now on, every Patriots victory will be referred to as a "happy ending"!

So all we need to do to make prostitution legal is say this is “artistic expression.”

It’s utter nonsense on the face of it to make it illegal for people to make money by having sex if it’s done in private, but legal if that very same transaction just happens to be in front of a camera. Calling the latter “expression” doesn’t change what’s happening. Come on people this is painfully obvious.

I mean why not allow murder videos or crack sale videos or any other crime we want, so long as it’s in front of a camera? As long as we record it and sell it it then becomes freedom of expression?

 

[QuantumMechanic]

For those interested, here’s an interesting piece on the porn/prostitution distinction:
CNN.com - The legal line between porn and prostitution - Aug 12, 2005