Josh McDaniels & Pass-Catching Backs

[Vindicate]

I'm not, at all, familiar with football scheme, let alone the complex offense that NE predicates itself on. But it always seems Josh McD has some big love for pass catching backs, especially in big games (two most recent Superbowls).

Is there anyone that can break down that roll for us? I mean the past two Superbowls had to be Vereen's and White's best games. Kevin even seemed to be kind of a bottom of the bag hat trick in some big games, so what enforces Josh's reliance on them and what opportunities does a pass-catching back afford you that, say, you can't just get with putting Edleman in the backfield to give a confusing look with a more sure handed receiver? (Please be light on me with that suggestion lol, I'm just trying to make talking points).

Once I get some more time I might drop some numbers in here to reference.

 

[Bourne Again Christian]

They have to respect the threat of a run is my guess.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not, at all, familiar with football scheme, let alone the complex offense that NE predicates itself on. But it always seems Josh McD has some big love for pass catching backs, especially in big games (two most recent Superbowls).

Is there anyone that can break down that roll for us? I mean the past two Superbowls had to be Vereen's and White's best games. Kevin even seemed to be kind of a bottom of the bag hat trick in some big games, so what enforces Josh's reliance on them and what opportunities does a pass-catching back afford you that, say, you can't just get with putting Edleman in the backfield to give a confusing look with a more sure handed receiver? (Please be light on me with that suggestion lol, I'm just trying to make talking points).

Once I get some more time I might drop some numbers in here to reference.

I think most of the reason for the Rb catching a lot of passes in the last 2 SBs is how we are defended. Remember ATL HC was the Seattle DC

 

[Vindicate]

I think most of the reason for the Rb catching a lot of passes in the last 2 SBs is how we are defended. Remember ATL HC was the Seattle DC

I thought I remember reading that Seattle runs a modified Cover 2 package with a hybrid of zone and man? Is that wrong?

If so A. ) What packages do they run & B.) Why does a pass-catching back excel against that D? Does it naturally spread up field/towards the middle with fast defenders, eventually leaving a part of the field typically open for an attack?

 

[SlowGettingUp]

Atlanta mostly played cover-1 man, with different players rotating into the middle of the field (robber, lurk) to help the single safety. That proved to be a good defense against the crossing routes the Pats usually use. It is sometimes vulnerable to routes down the sidelines (including by RBs).

If they have to respect the run, then they need more players in the box. More empty grass down the sidelines.

 

[Vindicate]

Atlanta mostly played cover-1 man, with different players rotating into the middle of the field (robber, lurk) to help the single safety. That proved to be a good defense against the crossing routes the Pats usually use. It is sometimes vulnerable to routes down the sidelines (including by RBs).

If they have to respect the run, then they need more players in the box. More empty grass down the sidelines.

What exactly is robber, lurk?

(If it gets annoying I'm asking these, please let me know lol. I obviously can google them but I feel as if a more simplistic breakdown could be beneficial).

 

[FCB02062]

Brady has always had a good to great pass catching running back - Kevin Faulk, Woodhead, Vereen, Lewis, White...must be a prerequisite to this "Earhart/Perkins/Weis/McDaniels" offense they run...

 

[Ring 6]

I thought I remember reading that Seattle runs a modified Cover 2 package with a hybrid of zone and man? Is that wrong?

If so A. ) What packages do they run & B.) Why does a pass-catching back excel against that D? Does it naturally spread up field/towards the middle with fast defenders, eventually leaving a part of the field typically open for an attack?

I haven't gone back and rewatched the coverages (and I am too amped up about the results of plays during the game to pay attention to what the defense is playing) but in Cover 2, one of the keys is the MLB getting depth. He essentially has the deep middle, because the '2' means the safeties have deep halves of the field. Running a receiver up the seam and them bringing a RB across the middle, or to the sideline makes it difficult on the other LBs to cover, especially against a team like us that has WRs who are huge threats to run through LB zones.
It seemed they also played a lot of man. When that happens you get a RB mismatched with a LB. I know in a lot of cases they manned up a S vs White when we spread the field, but that was a mismatch too.

Basically, in man they had no one who could cover White, in zone, the areas White operates in are most vulnerable.

Same applies to Verren in 49, but I think if you analyzed Quinn played more zone in 49 and man in 51.

 

[Ring 6]

Brady has always had a good to great pass catching running back - Kevin Faulk, Woodhead, Vereen, Lewis, White...must be a prerequisite to this "Earhart/Perkins/Weis/McDaniels" offense they run...

But he uses them A LOT more than he used to. Faulk and Woodhead never caught as many passes as Verren and White (and Lewis when he played in 15) have.

 

[Vindicate]

Brady has always had a good to great pass catching running back - Kevin Faulk, Woodhead, Vereen, Lewis, White...must be a prerequisite to this "Earhart/Perkins/Weis/McDaniels" offense they run...

Know of any solid resources that break this offense down in layman's terms that verbally builds up to the intricacies? I kind of want to do a personal project of understand Patriots offense and then analyze how it works against other matchups.

 

[Ring 6]

What exactly is robber, lurk?

(If it gets annoying I'm asking these, please let me know lol. I obviously can google them but I feel as if a more simplistic breakdown could be beneficial).

Basically its a free man, who has no zone or no one to cover, but tries to read the play. Its how they got the pick 6. Alford was 'robber' which means he could have been anywhere, and in this case he read it right. Brady never expected him to be there.

 

[Vindicate]

I haven't gone back and rewatched the coverages (and I am too amped up about the results of plays during the game to pay attention to what the defense is playing) but in Cover 2, one of the keys is the MLB getting depth. He essentially has the deep middle, because the '2' means the safeties have deep halves of the field. Running a receiver up the seam and them bringing a RB across the middle, or to the sideline makes it difficult on the other LBs to cover, especially against a team like us that has WRs who are huge threats to run through LB zones.
It seemed they also played a lot of man. When that happens you get a RB mismatched with a LB. I know in a lot of cases they manned up a S vs White when we spread the field, but that was a mismatch too.

Basically, in man they had no one who could cover White, in zone, the areas White operates in are most vulnerable.

Same applies to Verren in 49, but I think if you analyzed Quinn played more zone in 49 and man in 51.

Awesome, I really appreciate that breakdown!

 

[SVN]

its one thing which is unique to this offense. Cant think of many teams which run this and draft players every 2 yrs to run this.

 

[Ring 6]

Know of any solid resources that break this offense down in layman's terms that verbally builds up to the intricacies? I kind of want to do a personal project of understand Patriots offense and then analyze how it works against other matchups.

Well calling the Patriot offense, "Earhardt/Perkins" is really a misnomer. Earhadt was OC and briefly HC for the Patriots, and the OC for the SB winning Parcells Giants. Weis worked on that staff.
The offense BB designed here in 2000 had some basis in that system, but has evolved into something that doesn't even come close to resembling it. Mostly now its just a terminology similarity.
He and McD have expanded and grown the concepts, and added many elements, including the spread, which is influenced by Urban Meyer.

The Earhardt/Perkins was a run heavy, play action pass offense in a totally different era of the NFL.

The Patriot offense now is a multiple offense, that is varied and adapted to opponent and game plan. It pretty much has elements of every offense.

 

[smurfalarm]

what opportunities does a pass-catching back afford you that, say, you can't just get with putting Edleman in the backfield to give a confusing look with a more sure handed receiver?

I just wanted to add one thing that I haven't seen addressed. You are discussing the running back as if he is just another receiver who is coming out of the backfield, but on top of actually rushing the ball, he has some other responsibilities that receivers don't usually have on passing plays. Running backs are frequently tasked with blocking pass rushers or running a play action fake, neither of which a guy like Edelman is nearly as effective at as White or Lewis. Edelman lining up in the backfield is a confusing look insofar as it's something unusual that the defense isn't as used to seeing, but trick plays notwithstanding, it's actually pretty straightforward in that you know he's far more likely to be a target for Brady rather than blocking or running with the ball.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Barnwell wrote a bit about this with some links to the snag concepts that would be used.

The biggest concern for the Falcons' pass defense, though, might be on throws to James White and Dion Lewis. Atlanta was 26th in the league in DVOA on throws to running backs this year while allowing a league-high 53.5 receiving yards per game to backs. Teams haven't been able to exploit that in the postseason, in part thanks to injury: The Seahawks were without C.J. Prosise, and the Packers lost Ty Montgomery twice during the game and had their starting running back on the field for only 23 snaps.

Quinn is loath to play without at least one deep safety, which means Ricardo Allen will almost always be in center field as the Falcons play Cover 1 Man or Cover 3. The job of covering the backs will fall to Poole, Jones or another rookie, linebacker De'Vondre Campbell. They all have the speed to hold up in coverage, but the Patriots are so clever in creating favorable routes for their backs that it's difficult to foresee Atlanta locking them down all game. In the Super Bowl two years ago, the Patriots were kept alive at times by Shane Vereen, who finished with a team-high 11 catches and six first downs. The Patriots can stretch the Falcons in Cover 3 by using their backs as part of snag concepts, getting into the flat for safe completions while daring the outside corner to stop sinking on the deep corner route.

Barnwell's Super Bowl LI preview: Why I'm predicting a rout

Note: Obviously the prediction was off, but the rest of the write-up is worth reading.

And more on the snag concept and how it attacks cover 3:

Against a Cover Three defense, the cornerback should take away the corner route by dropping into the deep third, but the snag/mini-curl and the flat should put a horizontal stretch on the flat defender and one of the two should be open.



Putting these two reads together creates the triangle, thus giving options against a variety of coverages. It’s worth mentioning a few points that make the play truly go. First, I prefer this play from a five-step drop. Many coaches teach it from a three-step drop, but I think expanding to a five-step drop allows the corner route to develop so that the high/low read of the corner becomes a better option — the receivers need some time to put that defender in a bind. The important thing is for the corner route to be thrown on “rhythm,” which means the quarterback must throw it once his fifth step hits he must be ready to throw the ball and not require a “gather” or “hitch up” step.

Second, when the quarterback throws the corner route he must “throw the receiver open.” This means that the quarterback must throw the ball to the open space and it is on the receiver to go get the ball. It’s all about attacking space.

Finally, what really makes the play go is the snag or mini-curl or slant-sit route. My preferred way of teaching it is for the receiver to take one vertical step and then to break across the formation to a depth of 5-6 yards over where the corner route originated from. It’s important for him to find the open space. This space should be inside the flat defender but outside the hook-curl defender (typically an inside linebacker), but it could open up in different spots; it’s almost an option route and requires that kind of feel from the receiver. The video clips below show some excellent pro and college examples of effective snags.

- See more at: Snag, stick, and the importance of triangles (yes, triangles) in the passing game | Smart Football