Is the assertion that Belichick's drafts have been poor accurate?

[Shockt327]

OMFG. I just spent 30 mins typing up a post explaining exactly WHY the Pats have been terrible at drafting looking at each pick but accidentally closed the tab when switching tabs. :|

But yeah, they've been awful. If you don't believe this you're crazy, like you need to be institutionalized crazy. People are focusing way too much on the hits rather than the countless misses. Instead of typing a long pick by pick post I'll post the cliff notes:

Fun fact #1: Since 2004 the Patriots have drafted 14 players in the secondary, THREE remain with the team. (Chung/McCourty and Malcolm Williams [I think])

Furthermore, of those 3 that are on the team, Chung/McCourty are both incredibly AVERAGE.

Fun fact #2: Since 2004, the Patriots have drafted 6 WR, TWO remain with the team. (Slater/Edleman) Both do not contribute on offense but are decent players.

Fun fact #3: Since 2004, the Patriots haven't drafted one effective pass rusher. Not one!

Conclusion: The Patriots simply can not evaluate WR's, ANYONE in the secondary, or pass rushers effectively. This is undeniable. You can't argue against FACTS.

Have the Patriots come away with some great players? Yes. But you can't focus on a couple good players when you have 10 picks a year. The reason the Patriots are where they are now (defensively speaking) is because they haven't been refilling talent that has been leaving this team.

Stop being intentionally dense. Your "fun facts" are nothing more than a law of averages that apply to every team in the NFL; if you want to single out a few positions. You mean guys who were drafted 7 years ago -- in any round, no less -- are no longer here? Oh noez!

Also, you are nitpicking the DE/OLB position. You could look at literally any team and see one specific area of need (like, say, OL in IND or PIT) and then point out how they couldn't draft at that position over the past 7 seasons, or whatever.

 

[SyN65]

Stop being intentionally dense. Your "fun facts" are nothing more than a law of averages that apply to every team in the NFL; if you want to single out a few positions. You mean guys who were drafted 7 years ago -- in any round, no less -- are no longer here? Oh noez!

Also, you are nitpicking the DE/OLB position. You could look at literally any team and see one specific area of need (like, say, OL in IND or PIT) and then point out how they couldn't draft at that position over the past 7 seasons, or whatever.

My argument is that this team is incapable of evaluating certain positions. Every team is different yes but this team can't draft a decent WR, RB, pass rusher, CB, or safety if their life depended on it.

Drafting 14 players in the secondary and not coming away with ONE above average player is inexcusable.

 

[Deus Irae]

My argument is that this team is incapable of evaluating certain positions. Every team is different yes but this team can't draft a decent WR, RB, pass rusher, CB, or safety if their life depended on it.

Drafting 14 players in the secondary and not coming away with ONE above average player is inexcusable.

WR - Branch, Givens
RB - Few picks devoted to it prior to this year (Jury out on Ridley/Vereen)
CB - Samuel, Hobbs (Jury out on McCourty, but excellent rookie year)
S - Wilson, Sanders (Chung still developing)

Not even counting top picks who were good enough to start for years (Meriweather/Maroney), your claim doesn't hold water. BB has been struggling with picks in recent years, but the notion that he can't draft the positions "if their life depended on it" is over-the-top and inaccurate. There's a difference between recent struggles and constant failure.

 

[SyN65]

WR - Branch, Givens
RB - Few picks devoted to it prior to this year (Jury out on Ridley/Vereen)
CB - Samuel, Hobbs (Jury out on McCourty, but excellent rookie year)
S - Wilson, Sanders (Chung still developing)

Not even counting top picks who were good enough to start for years (Meriweather/Maroney), your claim doesn't hold water. BB has been struggling with picks in recent years, but the notion that he can't draft the positions "if their life depended on it" is over-the-top and inaccurate. There's a difference between recent struggles and constant failure.

1. You're rebuttal to "Patriots can't draft WR's" is Branch/Givens...both from the '02 draft...10 years ago. Nuff said.

2. I like how we devoted some picks to RB this year. Jury is out on Vereen/Ridley. I like what I've seen from him (Ridley) so far.

3. Samuel was in '03, Hobbs wasn't good. Sameul is the last good CB they've drafted...9 years ago.

4. All of those safeties are average.

6. Meriweather and Maroney are both garbage. Maroney is out of the league and Meriweather last I heard was benched in Chi town.

If anything all your post did was reaffirm exactly what I said. Just because they're "good enough to start" doesn't mean they're good players.

 

[Deus Irae]

1. You're rebuttal to "Patriots can't draft WR's" is Branch/Givens...both from the '02 draft...10 years ago. Nuff said.

Yes. It proves your claim wrong.

3. Samuel was in '03, Hobbs wasn't good. Sameul is the last good CB they've drafted...9 years ago.

Incorrect. Hobbs was a starting quality NFL cornerback. Your individual like or dislike of him is irrelevant.

4. All of those safeties are average.

Wilson was certainly better than average until he became gun shy. Furthermore, your use of "average" is both arbitrary and meaningless.

6. Meriweather and Maroney are both garbage. Maroney is out of the league and Meriweather last I heard was benched in Chi town.

If anything all your post did was reaffirm exactly what I said. Just because they're "good enough to start" doesn't mean they're good players.

Actually, my post showed that yours was incorrect and poorly thought out. Your refusal to concede obvious points shows you have no desire to be fair, honest or rational in discussing the matter. I'm someone who's been questioning BB in a lot of areas, including his recent drafting. For you to lose me so completely on this issue, which you have with this ridiculous follow up post of yours, should have you re-thinking your position.

 

[SyN65]

I suspect that 30 teams would like to have such evaluation problems. The current state of the 2011 patriots is that we are one of the 5 best teams in the nfl, as we have been since 2001.

I understand that there are those who think that the team and the franchise are in terrible shape. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how silly.

===============================
Pats have an evaluation problem when it comes to WRs, safeties, CB's, and pass rushers. The current state of the 2011 Patriots reflect that.[/b]
[/QUOTE]

 

[Deus Irae]

Answers in bold.

1.) You're still wrong.

2.) You've tempered your original, idiotic claim

this team can't draft a decent WR, RB, pass rusher, CB, or safety if their life depended on it.

but you're still looking more foolish with every post, because you're now conceding points against your first argument while insisting that your first argument is holding water. Will your next attempt at this be "decent is not average!"?

Again, if you want to talk about BB's having made a lot of drafting miscues of late, I'm with you. When you jump into the over-the-top stuff, you become nothing more than the mirror of the rabid homers, and they're clownish enough that they don't need anyone offsetting them from the other side.

 

[Sciz]

OMFG. I just spent 30 mins typing up a post explaining exactly WHY the Pats have been terrible at drafting looking at each pick but accidentally closed the tab when switching tabs. :|

But yeah, they've been awful. If you don't believe this you're crazy, like you need to be institutionalized crazy. People are focusing way too much on the hits rather than the countless misses. Instead of typing a long pick by pick post I'll post the cliff notes:

And for how many teams did you dissect the complete draft history? Analyzing drafts is useless in a vacuum. Have to compare it to other teams.

 

[patfanken]

All the following current players were drafted or picked up as UDFA and who are currently either on the roster or are on IR

QB - Brady, Hoyer, Mallett
RB - Vareen, Ridely, Faulk, BJGE
WR- Slater, Edelman, Branch
TE- Gronkowski, Hernandez
OL- Light, Mankins, Koppen, Cannon, Volmer, Solder, Wendell Orenberger

DL - Wilfolk Love, Brace, Pryor Deadrick, Wright
LB, Mayo, Spikes, Fletcher, Cunningham, Guyton
DB McCourty, Chung, Arrington, Dowliing, Brown
P Mesko

*there could be a few more I've missed since this is off the top of my head.
These 37 guys make up the great bulk of the talent of a team that will right now is tied with NO and SF for the 2rd best record in the league. And right now who could claim is playing better more consistent football, horrid defense and all. MAYBE only the Saints.....And its all home grown

I would wager that number is either on par or better than most teams in the NFL for growing thier own talent. And that's the key in looking at this. You can't do it in a vaccuum. As it is, most fans think their team is horrible at drafting.

Given that we live in an era of short rookie contracts and players can move from team to team with a much great ease, we've developed more than our share of our current roster.

 

[IllegalContact]

All the following current players were drafted or picked up as UDFA and who are currently either on the roster or are on IR

QB - Brady, Hoyer, Mallett
RB - Vareen, Ridely, Faulk, BJGE
WR- Slater, Edelman, Branch
TE- Gronkowski, Hernandez
OL- Light, Mankins, Koppen, Cannon, Volmer, Solder, Wendell Orenberger

DL - Wilfolk Love, Brace, Pryor Deadrick, Wright
LB, Mayo, Spikes, Fletcher, Cunningham, Guyton
DB McCourty, Chung, Arrington, Dowliing, Brown
P Mesko

*there could be a few more I've missed since this is off the top of my head.
These 37 guys make up the great bulk of the talent of a team that will right now is tied with NO and SF for the 2rd best record in the league. And right now who could claim is playing better more consistent football, horrid defense and all. MAYBE only the Saints.....And its all home grown

I would wager that number is either on par or better than most teams in the NFL for growing thier own talent. And that's the key in looking at this. You can't do it in a vaccuum. As it is, most fans think their team is horrible at drafting.

Given that we live in an era of short rookie contracts and players can move from team to team with a much great ease, we've developed more than our share of our current roster.

given that up to 53 players need to make the team gives plenty of opportunity for people to toil a few years on a roster before being labeled a bust.

there is something to the problem though with so many 2nd round picks turning to dust. people keep talking about 'value' and these additional 2nd round picks, but based on the success rate, the pats would be better off using the 1st rounders they unloaded for them

 

[cmasspatsfan]

I would wager that number is either on par or better than most teams in the NFL for growing thier own talent. And that's the key in looking at this. You can't do it in a vaccuum. As it is, most fans think their team is horrible at drafting.

Right, and you cant pick 2 or 3 position where we're below average and say his drafting sucks and ignore all the other positions and depth of the roster.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Late to the party but its a damn shame, JJ Watt, Ryan Kerrigan, Connor Barwin, Clay Matthews, Aldon Smith, Jason Pierre Paul, etc didn't fit our scheme.

 

[SyN65]

Late to the party but its a damn shame, JJ Watt, Ryan Kerrigan, Connor Barwin, Clay Matthews, Aldon Smith, Jason Pierre Paul, etc didn't fit our scheme.

So change the scheme. I'm so sick of this excuse.

 

[jmt57]

1. You're rebuttal to "Patriots can't draft WR's" is Branch/Givens...both from the '02 draft...10 years ago. Nuff said.

My argument is that this team is incapable of evaluating certain positions. Every team is different yes but this team can't draft a decent WR, RB, pass rusher, CB, or safety if their life depended on it.

So I understand correctly, players drafted beyond a certain point (four years? five years?) in the past do not count; and talent evaluation of players acquired via trade -i.e., comparing college player vs pro player (trading draft picks for Welker and Moss) does not count either, correct? And the fact the team had both Welker and Moss on the roster is irrelevant (which would also mean if the Patriots don't draft and develop another tight end over the next few years then they will at that point be deemed incapable of drafting tight ends), correct? And players that did start or saw significant playing time for three or more years but are no longer on the team are deemed to be busts, correct?


Let's say the expected number of productive players per draft is three, though that may be quite high considering the standards you set forth in this thread. It would take five years to have just one at every position on the roster, and if you have more than one at any one position (e.g., TE), then it takes longer than that to have a so-called quality pick at every position ... yet, you're still expecting multiple standouts at every position within a minimal time frame. Basically, in my opinion, you've set up a standard that would be impossible for any team to achieve - especially one that already has many of those roster spots filled with productive players.



I think this comment is well worth re-reading and considering:

And for how many teams did you dissect the complete draft history? Analyzing drafts is useless in a vacuum. Have to compare it to other teams.

 

[Shockt327]

How many of you whiny Pink-Haters don't realize the Pats just had their best draft in Franchise history just the year before last?


Gronk - Future HOF (yeah, I said it)

Hernandez - 2011 Pro Bowl (currently 2nd behind Gronk in votes)

McCourtey - 2010 Pro Bowl (soph slump, he'll be fine, Ty Law slumped too)

Spikes - (Quality starter. Only player from last year's team to improve)

Oh, and we even nabbed a quality P in Zoltan Mesko

Seriously, you'd have to go back to 1995 to find a draft even close to this one. Not better, mind you. Just close.

 

[JMarr]

How many of you whiny Pink-Haters don't realize the Pats just had their best draft in Franchise history just the year before last?


Gronk - Future HOF (yeah, I said it)

Hernandez - 2011 Pro Bowl (currently 2nd behind Gronk in votes)

McCourtey - 2010 Pro Bowl (soph slump, he'll be fine, Ty Law slumped too)

Spikes - (Quality starter. Only player from last year's team to improve)

Oh, and we even nabbed a quality P in Zoltan Mesko

Seriously, you'd have to go back to 1995 to find a draft even close to this one. Not better. Just close.

Yea, you tell all those whiny Pink Hatters! Why should they complain when we've just had (as you say) basically one monster draft since 1995? All the people pointing out that BB arguably has drafted ONE difference-maker on defense (Mayo) since 2004 must all be Red Sox fans.

 

[patsfan-1982]

Late to the party but its a damn shame, JJ Watt, Ryan Kerrigan, Connor Barwin, Clay Matthews, Aldon Smith, Jason Pierre Paul, etc didn't fit our scheme.

with out looking it up i think the pats only passed on Matthews and Barwin the rest were all top 15 picks, but Connor Barwin over Butler or Brace sonds better and better every day but you cant win them all lots of team's and there fans are talking why they passed on Gronk and Hernandez

 

[Shockt327]

Yea, you tell all those whiny Pink Hatters! Why should they complain when we've just had (as you say) basically one monster draft since 1995? All the people pointing out that BB arguably has drafted ONE difference-maker on defense (Mayo) since 2004 must all be Red Sox fans.

Are you seriously this dense?

Only one monster draft since 1995? Only one? You act like a "monster draft" is something to expect every year. They aren't. At all. Certainly not from the same franchise.

Please tell me you aren't this clueless.

Since 1995 to today -- from any franchise in the entire NFL -- please find me two drafts where a team nabbed 1 future HOF candidate, 2 Pro Bowlers, a Quality Starter like Spikes and a franchise SPteamer....all in one draft. That's 5 players in one draft. You what? I'll even make it easier. Scratch Mesko. I'll make it 4. That's the bench mark. 3 Pro Bowlers + 1 Quality Starter.

Go find it. Now.

Or else own up to how utterly ridiculous your attempt at making a point was.

 

[Deus Irae]

Are you seriously this dense?

Only one monster draft since 1995? Only one? You act like a "monster draft" is something to expect every year. They aren't. At all. Certainly not from the same franchise.

Please tell me you aren't this clueless.

Since 1995 to today -- from any franchise in the entire NFL -- please find me two drafts where a team nabbed 1 future HOF candidate, 2 Pro Bowlers, a Quality Starter like Spikes and a franchise SPteamer....all in one draft. That's 5 players in one draft. You what? I'll even make it easier. Scratch Mesko. I'll make it 4. That's the bench mark. 3 Pro Bowlers + 1 Quality Starter.

Go find it. Now.

Or else own up to how utterly ridiculous your attempt at making a point was.

How is your pointing to one draft any better than those who go about ignoring drafts? Since 2005, the Patriots have had 2 drafts that brought in enough drafted players to be worth a damn, and that's 2009 and 2010. 2009 has pretty clearly lost a bit of its early luster, for that matter, so it's largely one draft that's there for the team to hang its hat on.

 

[Ice Cold Bruschi]

The fact is BB has had some great drafts in his time here and he is almost batting 1.000 on 1st rounders with the exception of possibly Maroney (who still had some productive seasons here) but he has time and time again whiffed on defensive backs and wide receivers and has failed to address issues in the front seven on defense for years now. That being said, I'll take his drafting record over probably 85% of the teams in this league.