Giardi: Latest on Judon - Two sides remain "far, far, far apart"

[lancerman]

Don't forget Deion Branch...first of many....the threads were endless here.

Tbf in some of these cases we could argue it was a bad movie. Losing Branch hurt us the next year and is probably a big reason SB #4 took 10 years instead of 2 (and in the process handed a rival team a marquee franchise win and title). It was not a great move and it forced a course correction the following season.

I'm not even going to get into the Butler thing, we know how controversial that **** was and how several key players lost trust with Bill over it.

Bill usually made the right team building moves, but he had his own proclivities that sometimes did not pan out and ended up being wrong.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

This or something like it happened countless times when BB was here and happens on all 32 teams annually.

Players need to grouse to get paid… that’s the way NFL player contracts are designed. Aiyuk is moaning in San Fran, this is just a reality of the game.

I agree that the grousing part cannot be avoided in the NFL. There is a long list of players who complained to the press under BB. The difference is that I can't remember a time where the player who was disputing their contract was allowed to disrupt practice like Judon has. BB was not worried about what the players thought of him and would have suspended Judon long ago.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I agree that the grousing part cannot be avoided in the NFL. There is a long list of players who complained to the press under BB. The difference is that I can't remember a time where the player who was disputing their contract was allow to disrupt practice like Judon has. BB was not worried about what the players thought of him and would have suspended Judon long ago.

Thats pretty accurate. Players who had contract issues during the BB era either a) practiced with the team b) didnt practice but did conditioning on the lower field or c) stayed home.

My belief is BB got ahead of it with the player and asked them what they wanted to do and made sure they knew the risks (conditioning, getting traded, etc)

 

[mgteich]

This or something like it happened countless times when BB was here and happens on all 32 teams annually.

Players need to grouse to get paid… that’s the way NFL player contracts are designed. Aiyuk is moaning in San Fran, this is just a reality of the game.

really?

I guess it depends on your point of view.

What about the 10 players we have already extended? The most "grousing" was by Godchaux who indicated that he wanted to get an extension done.

 

[Wozzy]

really?

I guess it depends on your point of view.

What about the 10 players we have already extended? The most "grousing" was by Godchaux who indicated that he wanted to get an extension done.

Saying it only happened a couple times this offseason is a lot different than saying it never happened under BB's watch... which was the original assertion.

 

[Wozzy]

Hitting the Gin and juice early?

I stated that BB would never allow Judon like drama at his training camp. You decided to jump in with your countless examples as if BB allowed what Mayo didn't have the backbone to stop.

I stated that BB did not put up with players publicly complaining about money. Those that did were shown the door like Moss. Or, Gronk with BB having no 2nd thoughts of trading him to Siberia.

The majority of Pats players over the 20 some years of BB in charge respected and feared him.

Jamie Collins let his disruption last all the way to the trade deadline at midseason... you said it never happened... it did. The majority of Pats players did respect BB, they also complained about contracts publicly... and yes, very often he shipped them out of town, but they got paid eventually which is what they wanted.

 

[rkarp1]

Jamie Collins let his disruption last all the way to the trade deadline at midseason... you said it never happened... it did. The majority of Pats players did respect BB, they also complained about contracts publicly... and yes, very often he shipped them out of town, but they got paid eventually which is what they wanted.

whoa. you said at the time Collins getting traded was because the team was not going to sign him.
Collins was freelancing, hunting stats and not following game planes. for half the season. he was traded due to insubordination. he was traded for a bag of chips.

 

[Wozzy]

whoa. you said at the time Collins getting traded was because the team was not going to sign him.
Collins was freelancing, hunting stats and not following game planes. for half the season. he was traded due to insubordination. he was traded for a bag of chips.

Both were true, they weren’t making him the highest paid ILB in the NFL and he was freelancing because he was disgruntled about his contract.

The Browns paid him twice the guaranteed money you predicted he would get. He was correct to fight for his worth, even if his methods were flawed.

 

[Triumph]

Jamie Collins let his disruption last all the way to the trade deadline at midseason... you said it never happened... it did. The majority of Pats players did respect BB, they also complained about contracts publicly... and yes, very often he shipped them out of town, but they got paid eventually which is what they wanted.

 

[Huckleberry1]

There's a difference between

1) staying home and holding out for a new contract, and

2) showing up to to camp and saying you'll do what you're contracted to do but then one day deciding you're gonna show up and not participate and making a spectacle of yourself sitting on the side before getting into an animated argument with the head coach as he sends you back inside and then coming back out to speak with the GM, all in the public eye

I'm not saying BB is perfect. He did a poor job the last few years and it was time to move on. But call a spade a spade - what's going on with Judon absolutely, 100% would not be happening with BB here. Not in this manner. Absolutely no shot.

Disagree completely. I was always a big Belichick supporter, and I will always believe that he and Brady succeeded in tandem and not the narrative that one made the other, but Belichick dealt with holdouts and contract disputes just like every other GM does. Judon is grossly underpaid, and that’s a result of the deal Belichick signed him to. And at this point I think they should trade him if they can get a day 2 pick for him. If not then make their best offer and he can take or sit for as long as he wants.

 

[Hugepatsfan]

Disagree completely. I was always a big Belichick supporter, and I will always believe that he and Brady succeeded in tandem and not the narrative that one made the other, but Belichick dealt with holdouts and contract disputes just like every other GM does. Judon is grossly underpaid, and that’s a result of the deal Belichick signed him to. And at this point I think they should trade him if they can get a day 2 pick for him. If not then make their best offer and he can take or sit for as long as he wants.

You're saying something different than I am. BB dealt with holdouts. Of course he did. All I'm saying is that THIS:



would NOT happen with BB. Judon would have never bothered going out there if BB was here. No player was showing up at practice just to sit and pout until BB came over to argue with him. I'm not saying they wouldn't have had the same underlying contract dispute, but no one would have thought it a good idea to do something like this over it. That's all I'm saying, no more or no less.

 

[bresna]

Disagree completely. I was always a big Belichick supporter, and I will always believe that he and Brady succeeded in tandem and not the narrative that one made the other, but Belichick dealt with holdouts and contract disputes just like every other GM does. Judon is grossly underpaid, and that’s a result of the deal Belichick signed him to. And at this point I think they should trade him if they can get a day 2 pick for him. If not then make their best offer and he can take or sit for as long as he wants.

"grossly underpaid"?? Are you Judon posting here?

The guy is making $14.675 Million this year at the age of 32 & coming off a lost season where he missed 13 games due to injury. FWIW, torn biceps are tough injuries to recover from to the level that is needed to play football on the line of scrimmage.

If anything, he's overpaid for his recent production and expected future performance as he is on the wrong side of 30.

 

[Hugepatsfan]

"grossly underpaid"?? Are you Judon posting here?

The guy is making $14.675 Million this year at the age of 32 & coming off a lost season where he missed 13 games due to injury. FWIW, torn biceps are tough injuries to recover from to the level that is needed to play football on the line of scrimmage.

If anything, he's overpaid for his recent production and expected future performance as he is on the wrong side of 30.

Judon isn't making $14.675M this year. His cap number is that because of signing bonus pro ration for money het got in the past. He's only making $7.5M this year including per game incentives (if he hits all of them). He's very underpaid relative to what he'd get on the open market. He got injured last year, but overall he was a total bargain for them in years 1 and 2.

There's a few schools of thought here. First is that he signed the deal and has to honor it and that's "fair". The other is that contracts routinely get redone when a player outperforms them and his play warrants that. The other is that while maybe he "deserves" a new deal, he got injured last year so the team is right to question if he'll be worth it and that's just tough luck for him.

IMO, they should just acknowledge that his goals don't align with theirs anymore and trade him somewhere that makes sense.

 

[Huckleberry1]

You're saying something different than I am. BB dealt with holdouts. Of course he did. All I'm saying is that THIS:



would NOT happen with BB. Judon would have never bothered going out there if BB was here. No player was showing up at practice just to sit and pout until BB came over to argue with him. I'm not saying they wouldn't have had the same underlying contract dispute, but no one would have thought it a good idea to do something like this over it. That's all I'm saying, no more or no less.

Once again, disagree completely. Belichick got into with players plenty of times, and the narrative that players don’t respect Mayo is ********,

 

[Huckleberry1]

Judon isn't making $14.675M this year. His cap number is that because of signing bonus pro ration for money het got in the past. He's only making $7.5M this year including per game incentives (if he hits all of them). He's very underpaid relative to what he'd get on the open market. He got injured last year, but overall he was a total bargain for them in years 1 and 2.

There's a few schools of thought here. First is that he signed the deal and has to honor it and that's "fair". The other is that contracts routinely get redone when a player outperforms them and his play warrants that. The other is that while maybe he "deserves" a new deal, he got injured last year so the team is right to question if he'll be worth it and that's just tough luck for him.

IMO, they should just acknowledge that his goals don't align with theirs anymore and trade him somewhere that makes sense.

Agree with this, those are the numbers I had seen as well.

 

[Wozzy]

"grossly underpaid"?? Are you Judon posting here?

Half his annual salary… if they cut your paycheck in half no doubt you’d be thrilled.

Pay the man, he’s out there coaching now… we could use a 51st coach.

 

[Hugepatsfan]

Once again, disagree completely. Belichick got into with players plenty of times, and the narrative that players don’t respect Mayo is ********,

Once again, you're adding your own commentary to what I'm saying. I'm not pushing a narrative that guys don't respect Mayo. I'm not saying BB didn't get into it with players ever.

People spent the last few years criticizing Bill for making everyone feel like they were in the military, like they were walking on egg shells, like they had a muzzle on them and couldn't be themselves, and being "afraid of the boss". It was a valid criticism, but you can't pick and choose your spots. We can't criticize him for building that culture without acknowledging that when you have a culture like that you wouldn't have this. Guys held out with Bill. They publicly complained. All of that. But they did not show up and disrupt practice just to get into verbal spats with him. That just didn't happen. That's all I'm saying.

 

[bresna]

Judon isn't making $14.675M this year. His cap number is that because of signing bonus pro ration for money het got in the past. He's only making $7.5M this year including per game incentives (if he hits all of them). He's very underpaid relative to what he'd get on the open market. He got injured last year, but overall he was a total bargain for them in years 1 and 2.

There's a few schools of thought here. First is that he signed the deal and has to honor it and that's "fair". The other is that contracts routinely get redone when a player outperforms them and his play warrants that. The other is that while maybe he "deserves" a new deal, he got injured last year so the team is right to question if he'll be worth it and that's just tough luck for him.

IMO, they should just acknowledge that his goals don't align with theirs anymore and trade him somewhere that makes sense.

Why do so many posters act as if "salary" is what the contract is all about? The total value of Judon's current contract is $56,568,628. Divide that by 4 years and you get $14,142,157 per year for those 4 years.

Signing bonus vs salary are just salary cap games they play. Judon is making over $14 Million per year over his 4 year contract. Just because half of it was paid in advance doesn't mean it isn't there.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Once again, you're adding your own commentary to what I'm saying. I'm not pushing a narrative that guys don't respect Mayo. I'm not saying BB didn't get into it with players ever.

People spent the last few years criticizing Bill for making everyone feel like they were in the military, like they were walking on egg shells, like they had a muzzle on them and couldn't be themselves, and being "afraid of the boss". It was a valid criticism, but you can't pick and choose your spots. We can't criticize him for building that culture without acknowledging that when you have a culture like that you wouldn't have this. Guys held out with Bill. They publicly complained. All of that. But they did not show up and disrupt practice just to get into verbal spats with him. That just didn't happen. That's all I'm saying.

How would you know about Belichick’s interactions with players when the vast majority of practice and meetings isn’t on camera? And you are trying to say that players don’t respect Mayo when you say “ when you have culture like that you wouldn’t have this.” You are taking one sideline interaction at practice and extrapolating from it that Mayo isn’t respected by the players “ so they do this…..”

 

[Huckleberry1]

Why do so many posters act as if "salary" is what the contract is all about? The total value of Judon's current contract is $56,568,628. Divide that by 4 years and you get $14,142,157 per year for those 4 years.

Signing bonus vs salary are just salary cap games they play. Judon is making over $14 Million per year over his 4 year contract. Just because half of it was paid in advance doesn't mean it isn't there.

That’s the bonus to sign with the team, how the league attributes it to the cap and how the player sees it in relation to their yearly pay are two different things. Players don’t see their bonus as part of their salary.