Gasper: I think Bill is realizing his system doesn't work without high level QB play

[Bruins29]

Eh, he is a good guy. He just loves old time football, nostalgia and history. (And Doug Flutie)
More than anyone else on this board he is consistent and unashamed if what he believes.
He is a magnet for catching crap for people but he always handles it like a gentlemen.

He is the shining example of why this trend of people feeling they need to eviscerate someone because they have a different opinion is garbage that destroys social media and websites like this.
Just leave the dude alone.

I am sorry. I thought this was Patsfans where we discuss topics and when we give opinions we back them with some sort of reasoning and facts. Even if the opinions are ridiculous I can respect someone who at least tries to explain it.

I am not much fan of a flame throwing troll who only thinks that the real Patriots were the ones who used the old uniforms that were associated with losers. Not a fan of nonobjective posters with their head stuck their ass in the 60's and 70's either. There is a lot more to this team than that. These latest teams deserve much more respect than he gives them and they paved the way to this incredible legacy. I think the forum deserves better also because it makes this place look kind of stupid. Drew deserves much better too!

I am being extremely kind here...

Also, did you just give me an order?

 

[Ring 6]

I am sorry. I thought this was Patsfans where we discuss topics and when we give opinions we back them with some sort of reasoning and facts. Even if the opinions are ridiculous I can respect someone who at least tries to explain it.

I am not much fan of a flame throwing troll who only thinks that the real Patriots were the ones who used the old uniforms that were associated with losers. Not a fan of nonobjective posters with their head stuck their ass in the 60's and 70's either. There is a lot more to this team than that. These latest teams deserve much more respect than he gives them and they paved the way to this incredible legacy. I think the forum deserves better also because it makes this place look kind of stupid. Drew deserves much better too!

I am being extremely kind here...

Also, did you just give me an order?

So give your opinion. There is no reason to insult the guy and act like a ****. He is civil, polite and entitled to his opinion.
It is possible to just say what you think without playing to the crowd.

 

[PatsWSB47]

Yeah I mean guys like Kirk cousins are putting up better seasons than Manning or Brady had in the early 00's

Fantacy stats have caused us to lose perspective. Better numbers don't translate into more wins.

 

[BigPeteG]

Fantacy stats have caused us to lose perspective. Better numbers don't translate into more wins.

Kirk has had some good wins. Honestly modern QBs are indeed much better then many of the old timers - they have had good coaching, video, to study and a ton more training about throwing, much better strength and conditioning info and so forth and so on.

MLB is a pretty easy example of this. Back years ago very few pitchers threw the ball 100mph. Nowadays dozens of guys can do it. Velocity has gone up across the boards. Why? These guys are better pitchers. They have learned what works - and what doesn't and have trained extensively to get better results.

It's the same in many other sports like basketball or tennis.. The guys at the top of the game are all objectively better then the old timers - there are more people now and thus there is far more competition as well. In tennis back in 70s I mean some guys could hit a good topspin forehand - now every guy on the tour can - even the JAG guy ranked 300 in the world..

 

[Joker]

Kirk has had some good wins. Honestly modern QBs are indeed much better then many of the old timers - they have had good coaching, video, to study and a ton more training about throwing, much better strength and conditioning info and so forth and so on.

MLB is a pretty easy example of this. Back years ago very few pitchers threw the ball 100mph. Nowadays dozens of guys can do it. Velocity has gone up across the boards. Why? These guys are better pitchers. They have learned what works - and what doesn't and have trained extensively to get better results.

It's the same in many other sports like basketball or tennis.. The guys at the top of the game are all objectively better then the old timers - there are more people now and thus there is far more competition as well. In tennis back in 70s I mean some guys could hit a good topspin forehand - now every guy on the tour can - even the JAG guy ranked 300 in the world..

yeah..love ya Big Pete but...I must mildly disagree...Warren Spahn topped out at 105 mph 63 times in his career. Nolan Ryan, J.R. Richard, Koufax routinely broke the 100 mph limit. Ryan was reputed to have thrown an 108 mph pitch in 1974 but even more astoundingly he was throwing 100+ late in his career.These men were freaks then and they'd be even bigger freaks today

 

[Tunescribe]

Gasper sometimes achieves access to good information but often does a lousy job interpreting it. Other times he resorts to sheer gossip and embarrasses himself trying to become a "media personality." For whatever reason (perhaps because of his minority status) Felger was a big Gasper booster years ago giving him a platform he arguably didn't earn. Possessing the ability to be glib and talk/think fast doesn't necessarily make someone an insightful reporter or analyst.

 

[Ivan]

This is the dumbest thing Gasper has ever said and he has said a ****load.

What "system" does work without high-level QB play.

Exactly.

 

[Ivan]

While I recognize that Watson had a piece of sh.t for a head coach he still only has one more playoff win than Mac Jones.

 

[50-yard-line]

yeah..love ya Big Pete but...I must mildly disagree...Warren Spahn topped out at 105 mph 63 times in his career. Nolan Ryan, J.R. Richard, Koufax routinely broke the 100 mph limit. Ryan was reputed to have thrown an 108 mph pitch in 1974 but even more astoundingly he was throwing 100+ late in his career.These men were freaks then and they'd be even bigger freaks today

Anyone throwing before 1969 was throwing from a mound that was 6-10 inches higher. That's a huge difference. Even so, using the Frame Rate method, the new guys throw harder. Ryan was around 100 consistently. Bob Gibson was in the low-to-mid 90's. Anyone that got near 100 was a rarity. Now, many can hit it.

Where the old-time guys have it, though, was in duration - complete games. Ryan was hitting 100 in the 9th inning! A few years ago, i was watching a Sox game, where someone threw a complete game. It was their second of the year - and it was in late July. The announcer said that in 1970-something, at this same point in the season, the team had 78 complete games. And they had four-man rotations.

Different world.

 

[BigPeteG]

yeah..love ya Big Pete but...I must mildly disagree...Warren Spahn topped out at 105 mph 63 times in his career. Nolan Ryan, J.R. Richard, Koufax routinely broke the 100 mph limit. Ryan was reputed to have thrown an 108 mph pitch in 1974 but even more astoundingly he was throwing 100+ late in his career.These men were freaks then and they'd be even bigger freaks today

We don't really disagree. I am not saying that no one could throw 100mph. Just it wasn't widely replicated because we didn't know exactly how to do it and what needed to be done to achieve those numbers.

Guys growing up like Mac Jones now worked with a good QB coach - so he knows how to play the position much better then other guys in the early days. It's so different now. You can get much more in depth training about a specific position from people who really know the game then you could in the old days. Those guys just had to watch some games and try to pick up some stuff - now they have tons of guys who know not only how to perform but how to correct common mistakes, exercises to do etc.

Send Mac Jones back to the days of Tony Eason - he would easily beat him out.. Objectively he is better at throwing the ball to a spot, moving around the pocket etc etc. Doesn't mean he will dominate the NFL today. But most of these younger guys coming up are better coached and better prepared then any of the old time guys.

So sure part of it is the rules of changed so that Kirk Cousins can put up big numbers. But Cousins is also a perfectly capable modern QB who would have really excelled if he had access to the same training 40 years ago..

 

[Ring 6]

We don't really disagree. I am not saying that no one could throw 100mph. Just it wasn't widely replicated because we didn't know exactly how to do it and what needed to be done to achieve those numbers.

Guys growing up like Mac Jones now worked with a good QB coach - so he knows how to play the position much better then other guys in the early days. It's so different now. You can get much more in depth training about a specific position from people who really know the game then you could in the old days. Those guys just had to watch some games and try to pick up some stuff - now they have tons of guys who know not only how to perform but how to correct common mistakes, exercises to do etc.

Send Mac Jones back to the days of Tony Eason - he would easily beat him out.. Objectively he is better at throwing the ball to a spot, moving around the pocket etc etc. Doesn't mean he will dominate the NFL today. But most of these younger guys coming up are better coached and better prepared then any of the old time guys.

So sure part of it is the rules of changed so that Kirk Cousins can put up big numbers. But Cousins is also a perfectly capable modern QB who would have really excelled if he had access to the same training 40 years ago..

Cousins will have thrown 40 picks a year back then.

 

[50-yard-line]

We don't really disagree. I am not saying that no one could throw 100mph. Just it wasn't widely replicated because we didn't know exactly how to do it and what needed to be done to achieve those numbers.

Guys growing up like Mac Jones now worked with a good QB coach - so he knows how to play the position much better then other guys in the early days. It's so different now. You can get much more in depth training about a specific position from people who really know the game then you could in the old days. Those guys just had to watch some games and try to pick up some stuff - now they have tons of guys who know not only how to perform but how to correct common mistakes, exercises to do etc.

Send Mac Jones back to the days of Tony Eason - he would easily beat him out.. Objectively he is better at throwing the ball to a spot, moving around the pocket etc etc. Doesn't mean he will dominate the NFL today. But most of these younger guys coming up are better coached and better prepared then any of the old time guys.

So sure part of it is the rules of changed so that Kirk Cousins can put up big numbers. But Cousins is also a perfectly capable modern QB who would have really excelled if he had access to the same training 40 years ago..

You see this in kids' sports.

I maintain that I and eight of my friends would wipe the field with a typical Little League team of today. We played every day - every one of us could throw, catch, and swing a bat. Average kid today would have no chance against us.

But...an All-star team of today in Little League - the kids who play as we used to and who get high-level coaching (we played in a sandlot) from early on, would utterly destroy us.

 

[Triumph]

You can still win a Super Bowl with a mediocre QB.

Parcells NY Giants did twice. Sims and Hostetler were good, but not near the top tier. The 4 consecutive Super Bowl AFC representative Jim Kelly Bills were like the modern day Chiefs and a scoring machine. NY held the ball for 40 minutes and Buffalo only 20 minutes. Other teams have won the Lombardi cup as well. Dilfer for the Ravens and Brad Johnson for the Bucs. Foles is another QB.

It can be done.

 

[Bruins29]

You can still win a Super Bowl with a mediocre QB.

Parcells NY Giants did twice.

Giants did it 4x technically lol

 

[DropKickFlutie]

You can still win a Super Bowl with a mediocre QB.

Parcells NY Giants did twice. Sims and Hostetler were good, but not near the top tier. The 4 consecutive Super Bowl AFC representative Jim Kelly Bills were like the modern day Chiefs and a scoring machine. NY held the ball for 40 minutes and Buffalo only 20 minutes. Other teams have won the Lombardi cup as well. Dilfer for the Ravens and Brad Johnson for the Bucs. Foles is another QB.

It can be done.

Yes and also multiple Joe Gibbs teams.

But ever since the 2004 passing rules change on CBs, who has won since 2004 with a non-elite QB? Eli twice ? Flacco once? Broken down Peyton? Much harder to do.

 

[amfootball]

Yes and also multiple Joe Gibbs teams.

But ever since the 2004 passing rules change on CBs, who has won since 2004 with a non-elite QB? Eli twice ? Flacco once? Broken down Peyton? Much harder to do.

It is much more difficult. We also have to ask if that is our overall goal? Have a Qb that may win it once being carried by a great defense/ST?

 

[Deus Irae]

History's been pretty clear on this. If you either have real greatness around a lesser QB, or have a lesser QB that catches hot at the right time, you can win a Super Bowl. But it's the exception, not the rule (or, if you prefer, call it a clear minority of SB winners v. a clear majority of SB winners who were high level QBs), and it's not generally sustainable.

And Belichick's system hasn't show any sign of being different from that.

 

[Wozzy]

Great coaches/talent evaluators find great talent and great QB’s, that’s why you see name brand QB’s in championship games more often than not… not because you need to have one.

There are endless examples of just “good” or “average” QB’s winning rings… there’s not one example of a team with a superstar QB willing an average team to a championship.

Deshaun Watson was the best QB in the league last year… his team went 4-12. Magical QB’s are fanboy myth.

 

[BigPeteG]

History's been pretty clear on this. If you either have real greatness around a lesser QB, or have a lesser QB that catches hot at the right time, you can win a Super Bowl. But it's the exception, not the rule (or, if you prefer, call it a clear minority of SB winners v. a clear majority of SB winners who were high level QBs), and it's not generally sustainable.

And Belichick's system hasn't show any sign of being different from that.

Agreed - but its hardly fait accompli that Mac Jones will not be an elite QB. The QB many wanted to trade him for (Watson) by the numbers had a pretty weak arm - aka Deshaun Watson - who only scored a 45/45 on combine testing. Watson is faster on the ground - but not by a ton - 4.66 vs. 4.7 ish. For comparison sake none other then Tom Brady has thrown the fastest pass this year at 61+ mph. And in the combine Josh Allen has the fastest throw at 62 MPH.

Mac's supposed weak arm is his most notable flaw and why fans here have assigned him to JAG status after 5 games. But it's quite possible his arm is not that weak (I don't know how to get ahold of the next gen stats to find throwing velocity). His decision making and accuracy seems excellent. So it is quite possible that Mac could go on to become a star and we should not give up because he wasn't as heralded by the media as guys like Fields, Wilson Lawrence et al.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Agreed - but its hardly fait accompli that Mac Jones will not be an elite QB. The QB many wanted to trade him for (Watson) by the numbers had a pretty weak arm - aka Deshaun Watson - who only scored a 45/45 on combine testing. Watson is faster on the ground - but not by a ton - 4.66 vs. 4.7 ish. For comparison sake none other then Tom Brady has thrown the fastest pass this year at 61+ mph. And in the combine Josh Allen has the fastest throw at 62 MPH.

Mac's supposed weak arm is his most notable flaw and why fans here have assigned him to JAG status after 5 games. But it's quite possible his arm is not that weak (I don't know how to get ahold of the next gen stats to find throwing velocity). His decision making and accuracy seems excellent. So it is quite possible that Mac could go on to become a star and we should not give up because he wasn't as heralded by the media as guys like Fields, Wilson Lawrence et al.

I think he could benefit from an offseason with Tom House. But, Mac's arm is not weak. He has the best deep ball of any rookie. His deep ball stats in college were the best ever, and I don't hear anyone diss Burrow or Lawrence for also throwing to good receivers.

All the deep ball NFL stats on Mac this season are completely meaningless when he only has 1.7 seconds to throw the ball before he takes an unblocked hit. And it's not worth proving to mediots that he can throw deep, it's way more important to protect his health this year. Short throws all day every day with this crappy OLine.

.