Gasper: I think Bill is realizing his system doesn't work without high level QB play

[archstanton543]

Mac is a superb QB and just as I predicted way back in May, he was the steal of the draft. However there are some issues:

1. He is going to get injured if the OL cannot protect him. Ugh, I hope this does not happen, but it is scary out there.
2. He can only do so much if his receivers cannot get open. This is the gigantic weakness of the Patriots (and BB).

The receivers/TE's are getting open. There are many video breakdowns here that show that they are indeed getting open but Mac either doesn't see them or checks down because there's defenders flying into the backfield about a second and a half after the snap.

Are all his targets open on every single play? No, but they're not a major issue like they were last year.

 

[Lagaffe_07]

He can only do so much if his receivers cannot get open. This is the gigantic weakness of the Patriots (and BB).

I think it’s a made up argument. Receivers have been open this year.

 

[RIpats88]

At this point, it’s more probable than he will be a JAG than a hall of famer like half the board think he will be.

He is, for now, the best of the rookie QB. Will it be the case in 3 years? I don’t know. I think that’s the time we have to wait before pinning him in either category. Don’t forget that he was labeled as the most NFL ready rookie QB in the draft and it shows. I mean Allen took 3 years to develop. I remember clearly that everyone on this board was laughing at the Bills and categorized Allen as a bust at the midway point of his rookie season. If not before.

You know there's an in between for JAG and Hall of famer.

I really don't see anyone saying he will be a hall of famer. Just people saying he seems poised throws a nice ball and knows how to read a defense. Anytime someone says Mac Jones looks good people jump to "you think he will be a hall of famer!"

I do agree we need to wait and see. Most QBs don't become who they are their rookie year. Josh Allen had a horrible rookie year. But at the very least I see him as a Jimmy G which would be more than a JAG. A JAG is someone like a geno Smith or Brian hoyer.

The problem with this team is not Mac Jones. It's the defense, offensive line, coaching, play calling. Running backs. Granted Mac has been somewhat careless with the ball lately. BUT he's been asked to do more than he was supposed to early in the season. Early in the season we thought we would have a great OL, running game and defense. And Mac could just manage the game.

Right now we have none of those 3 pretty much and he's being asked to carry the team as a rookie

 

[RIpats88]

The receivers/TE's are getting open. There are many video breakdowns here that show that they are indeed getting open but Mac either doesn't see them or checks down because there's defenders flying into the backfield about a second and a half after the snap.

Are all his targets open on every single play? No, but they're not a major issue like they were last year.

The issues have shifted to the offensive line. Which is strange since it was supposed to be a strength

We can't run the ball, we can't protect the quarterback. If you can't do those two fundamental things you are in trouble

Also not being able to do those things is a recipe for disaster for a rookie QB.

 

[Ring 6]

Wickersham's book mentions it.





It was from Ian O'Connor quoting "an assistant coach". Which literally could be anyone. It says "us" but I wouldn't be surprised if the "assistant coach" wasn't with the organization at all.

Most likely made up

 

[Bruins29]

List that is not absurd and ridiculous:

Best quarterbacks ever to be New England Patriots at some point in their careers:

1. Tom Brady..................his attitude alone placed him above the others right from the start
2. Steve Grogan............career trajectory similar to Brady, sabotaged by Dreith, Tatum (and Sullivan)
3. Doug Flutie................Kiam was a total idiot for not signing him and naming him the starter, regardless of who the coach was
4. Jim Plunkett...............a championship player throughout
5. Babe Parilli..................his TD record only broken in 2007 by Brady
6. Rich Gannon..............MVP
7. Cam Newton..............MVP
8. Vinny Testaverde......better overall player
9. Brian Dowling............Brady if Pats hadn't drafted him
10. Joe Kapp....................won titles in CFL & NFL

I am sorry. Can you explain how Kapp and Dowling are better quarterbacks than Drew Bledsoe? Lets just start there for now.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

I think it’s a made up argument. Receivers have been open this year.

I am not so sure of that. Why does he always seem to checkdown? Why does he have to hold the ball so long? Maybe your are right, maybe the checkdowns are to look off the safety, but it seems to me that the receivers cannot get open. I could be wrong, it does happen occasionally; I will ask Bill at the next presser--that should clear the air.

 

[p8ryts]

List that is not absurd and ridiculous:

Best quarterbacks ever to be New England Patriots at some point in their careers:

1. Tom Brady..................his attitude alone placed him above the others right from the start
2. Steve Grogan............career trajectory similar to Brady, sabotaged by Dreith, Tatum (and Sullivan)
3. Doug Flutie................Kiam was a total idiot for not signing him and naming him the starter, regardless of who the coach was
4. Jim Plunkett...............a championship player throughout
5. Babe Parilli..................his TD record only broken in 2007 by Brady
6. Rich Gannon..............MVP
7. Cam Newton..............MVP
8. Vinny Testaverde......better overall player
9. Brian Dowling............Brady if Pats hadn't drafted him
10. Joe Kapp....................won titles in CFL & NFL

The fact that you consider QBs 6-10 better than Drew Bledsoe reduces the credibility of your list.

 

[amfootball]

You know there's an in between for JAG and Hall of famer.

I really don't see anyone saying he will be a hall of famer. Just people saying he seems poised throws a nice ball and knows how to read a defense. Anytime someone says Mac Jones looks good people jump to "you think he will be a hall of famer!"

I do agree we need to wait and see. Most QBs don't become who they are their rookie year. Josh Allen had a horrible rookie year. But at the very least I see him as a Jimmy G which would be more than a JAG. A JAG is someone like a geno Smith or Brian hoyer.

The problem with this team is not Mac Jones. It's the defense, offensive line, coaching, play calling. Running backs. Granted Mac has been somewhat careless with the ball lately. BUT he's been asked to do more than he was supposed to early in the season. Early in the season we thought we would have a great OL, running game and defense. And Mac could just manage the game.

Right now we have none of those 3 pretty much and he's being asked to carry the team as a rookie

The notion that any QB in today's league can just be a game manager is faulty I think. Qbs need to elevate not only their game but the players around them. Every single team is flawed, some more than others. I agree that we thought the overall team would be better but it's not, it has a ton of issues so that is where you need the QB to cover things up. Mac obviously isn't that guy yet and it remains to be seen if can develop into one.

But I feel like we are stuck in the 2001 thinking somewhat. That way of winning is long gone. The NFL is so offensive now with the rule changes and the way the game is played with all the college concepts that it is won largely on the production of the O, specifically the QB.

 

[BUSTAMOVE]

Love it! I got a disagree from Chris Gasper (aka:Kal El)

It’s OK to make assumptions that a Rookie 5 games in is going to be a JAG
but if someone calls you a JAG you get your Felger and Mazz panties in a bunch.

 

[sb1]

You know there's an in between for JAG and Hall of famer.

I really don't see anyone saying he will be a hall of famer. Just people saying he seems poised throws a nice ball and knows how to read a defense. Anytime someone says Mac Jones looks good people jump to "you think he will be a hall of famer!"

I do agree we need to wait and see. Most QBs don't become who they are their rookie year. Josh Allen had a horrible rookie year. But at the very least I see him as a Jimmy G which would be more than a JAG. A JAG is someone like a geno Smith or Brian hoyer.

The problem with this team is not Mac Jones. It's the defense, offensive line, coaching, play calling. Running backs. Granted Mac has been somewhat careless with the ball lately. BUT he's been asked to do more than he was supposed to early in the season. Early in the season we thought we would have a great OL, running game and defense. And Mac could just manage the game.

Right now we have none of those 3 pretty much and he's being asked to carry the team as a rookie

I don't think it's too early to say that Mac has an NFL career ahead of him in some form and that he has shown he belongs in the league. I'm not nearly as willing to say that for guys like Fields or Lance. I would have taken Lawrence over Mac but Pats had no shot at him. Otherwise they got the right guy and he's a good fit for a BB team and this kind of offense. It's also not too early to say the Pats absolutely made the right call showing Cam the door and elevating Mac to QB1 at the start.

I think we can compare Mac right now to Alex Smith. That's not a bad thing. A guy who if you put a good team around him will be really good but shouldn't be expected to elevate a subpar team every game like say Brady can. Most QB's can't. You can win with an Alex Smith. Remember Smith also whipped our asses twice and we had Brady for both games.

 

[TheRazorsEdge]

THE DISRESPECT TO NFL EUROPE LEGEND ROHAN DAVEY.

List that is not absurd and ridiculous:

Best quarterbacks ever to be New England Patriots at some point in their careers:

1. Tom Brady..................his attitude alone placed him above the others right from the start
2. Steve Grogan............career trajectory similar to Brady, sabotaged by Dreith, Tatum (and Sullivan)
3. Doug Flutie................Kiam was a total idiot for not signing him and naming him the starter, regardless of who the coach was
4. Jim Plunkett...............a championship player throughout
5. Babe Parilli..................his TD record only broken in 2007 by Brady
6. Rich Gannon..............MVP
7. Cam Newton..............MVP
8. Vinny Testaverde......better overall player
9. Brian Dowling............Brady if Pats hadn't drafted him
10. Joe Kapp....................won titles in CFL & NFL

THE DISRESPECT TO NFL EUROPE LEGEND ROHAN DAVEY..no one on that list has won a NFL EUROPE player of the year award.. Not 1.

Put some respect on this man's name!

 

[Pape]

List that is not absurd and ridiculous:

Best quarterbacks ever to be New England Patriots at some point in their careers:

1. Tom Brady..................his attitude alone placed him above the others right from the start
2. Steve Grogan............career trajectory similar to Brady, sabotaged by Dreith, Tatum (and Sullivan)
3. Doug Flutie................Kiam was a total idiot for not signing him and naming him the starter, regardless of who the coach was
4. Jim Plunkett...............a championship player throughout
5. Babe Parilli..................his TD record only broken in 2007 by Brady
6. Rich Gannon..............MVP
7. Cam Newton..............MVP
8. Vinny Testaverde......better overall player
9. Brian Dowling............Brady if Pats hadn't drafted him
10. Joe Kapp....................won titles in CFL & NFL

im sorry apf, but this list is nuts. I get how you are framing it but... come on... that alone make it absurd.

Considering Rich Gannon a Patriot, even for the short time he was here before being traded, is like the Chargers honoring Eli for his accomplishments... to phrase it another way... Its something the Colts would do... Yay AFC Finalist Banner!!! Yay.....

Cam Newton anywhere near the top ten of any list makes me want to vomit...

Brian Dowling? wtf...

Joe Kapp??? the guy was here during one of the worst Patriot seasons ever... EVER... 149 effing points...

and not to be mean, but Grogan, on a career trajectory similar to Brady? I love Steve... but he never won a single playoff game. Not one.

 

[50-yard-line]

I am sorry. Can you explain how Kapp and Dowling are better quarterbacks than Drew Bledsoe? Lets just start there for now.

Bledsoe should be #2 on that list. The guy was really good when he came out - but the game changed around him and he couldn't adapt.

I loved Grogan, but the guy was nowhere near him stat-wise.

 

[Bruins29]

We also have to remember that APF said years ago that Jim Plunkett was more talented than Tom Brady.

Now we just need APF to man up and defend his list (and that Plunkett comment also). If he does not, I am posting this list in the main fourm and asking for everyone's opinion on it.

 

[50-yard-line]

We also have to remember that APF said years ago that Jim Plunkett was more talented than Tom Brady.

Now we just need APF to man up and defend his list (and that Plunkett comment also). If he does not, I am posting this list in the main fourm and asking for everyone's opinion on it.

To be fair, Plunkett coming out was pretty damned good - then the Pats OL got him buried over and over again...

 

[Bruins29]

To be fair, Plunkett coming out was pretty damned good - then the Pats OL got him buried over and over again...

Plunket was great.

"more talented than brady?" no! laughable to even think it much less post it here.

 

[venecol]

I agree with APF's #1. That's all I got.

 

[Rob0729]

List that is not absurd and ridiculous:

Best quarterbacks ever to be New England Patriots at some point in their careers:

1. Tom Brady..................his attitude alone placed him above the others right from the start
2. Steve Grogan............career trajectory similar to Brady, sabotaged by Dreith, Tatum (and Sullivan)
3. Doug Flutie................Kiam was a total idiot for not signing him and naming him the starter, regardless of who the coach was
4. Jim Plunkett...............a championship player throughout
5. Babe Parilli..................his TD record only broken in 2007 by Brady
6. Rich Gannon..............MVP
7. Cam Newton..............MVP
8. Vinny Testaverde......better overall player
9. Brian Dowling............Brady if Pats hadn't drafted him
10. Joe Kapp....................won titles in CFL & NFL

No offense, but I have a lot of issues with your list.

First, when I rank players as who they were the best at a given position for the Patriots, I only look at what they did in a Patriots uniform. I mean you can do it any way you want, but guys like Gannon, Plunkett, Newton, and Testeverde did nothing in a Patriots uniform. Their success was elsewhere.

Second, I think you overrate Plunkett. Sure he as two Super Bowl rings, he was more along for the ride than a huge factor. In fact his numbers sucked. His TD to INT ratio sucked and so was his completion percentage. He never made the Pro Bowl or was an Al Pro. He was just an average QB who hooked up with a great team in an era where teams won on defense and teams could win a Super Bowl with an average QB.

Third, Dowling was a journeyman QB who bounced in and out of the NFL and never stuck with a team in the NFL for more than a few years (most were one and done stints and some not even that long). The only NFL team he stuck on for more than a year was the Pats, but that was because he was a back up. I don't know if I would put him higher than Matt Cassel never mind Bledsoe.

Fourth, Joe Kapp had one really good year in the NFL. Granted his short career was because of the Vikes screwing him over with his contract and Rozelle determining the contract that the Pats signed him on was not valid and he had to have a new contract which he refused to sign (note the Pats had to give the Vikes a first round pick even though the Vikes voided Kapp's contract). And Kapp decided to retire rather than sign a new contract. So we will never know what he would have been.

 

[Joker]

I can only add that I saw Joe Kapp play for our Patriots. Now, when the QB takes the snap and takes his drop, his passes should have some kind of spiral form....do we all agree? I SAW Kapp make throws where the ball was hurled through the air END OVER END. You see, when you're a fan and you witness THAT, it leaves you with a sense of embarrassment that THIS guy is supposed to BE a QB and IS your QB. I'd rather not rip open the emotional scars I have from this particular slice of Pats history.