Garcia Update

[supafly]

I just don’t get the hype with Waddle. He was signed to be the Tyrod Taylor of bridge-type LTs. Someone who they could afford to keep without leaving them with a bunch of rookies/PS players/no name castoffs.

I’ll agree that at this moment in time, he’s probably the front runner, but that could change in TC or early in the season.

 

[maineman209]

I just don’t get the hype with Waddle. He was signed to be the Tyrod Taylor of bridge-type LTs. Someone who they could afford to keep without leaving them with a bunch of rookies/PS players/no name castoffs.

I’ll agree that at this moment in time, he’s probably the front runner, but that could change in TC or early in the season.

Aside from Cannon, Waddle and Tobin are the only OT types on the roster who have any NFL starting experience (and Tobin, btw, seems to be significantly more athletic than Waddle).

Unless/until one of Garcia, Croston or a 2018 draftee steps up, one of Waddle/Tobin is likely a default week-1 starter at one of the tackle spots.

 

[supafly]

Aside from Cannon, Waddle and Tobin are the only OT types on the roster who have any NFL starting experience (and Tobin, btw, seems to be significantly more athletic than Waddle).

Unless/until one of Garcia, Croston or a 2018 draftee steps up, one of Waddle/Tobin is likely a default week-1 starter at one of the tackle spots.

I understand the default reasoning. I just think that it’s way too early to be handing him the spot, that’s all. I think that we’ll have some good competition there throughout the summer, even if the talent level is somewhat unremarkable.

La’Adrian Waddle has never impressed me in any way. I could easily see a guy like Croston, Garcia, or even a rookie battling him to the end. He may win it, but I doubt he keeps it throughout the season. Just my opinion.

 

[maineman209]

I just think that it’s way too early to be handing him the spot ...

Hence the "unless/until". I'm not "handing" anybody anything for the week-1 roster, that will be revealed 5 months from now.

For now, though, Waddle & Cannon are my "default" starting OTs since they have extensive NFL starting experience and extensive experience in the Pats' system. Tobin's NFL starting experience (and tested athleticism for me) puts just below those two, but his lack of Pats' experience make him "third".

Croston has a bit of live-fire NFL experience and a year of healthy practice in the Pats' system, so he's also a "candidate". However, Garcia and Jelks have nearly zero experience and both have been away from meaningful snaps for a considerable time.

Basing a current, temporary, penciled-in depth chart exclusively on experience is no more (or less) arbitrary than any other method. However, the relative experience of the players currently on the roster is a fact. At this point, anything else is really just subjective evaluation and speculation based on things that only the coaches can possibly know for certain at this point (and even they may not be certain quite yet).

IOW, Waddle is a "placeholder" unless/until someone else produces evidence - that I can see - that they've stepped up and overtaken him.

 

[fair catch fryar]

Even without the medical set back I'm not ready to hand a starting position to a 3rd pick in his second year.

Glad to hear he's healthy but if you can find veteran via trade or you can draft someone with more upside than a 3rd rder you do it.

I bet they do bring someone in for a look and as added competition in training camp, but if Dante Scarneccia tells BB that he can make him a starter by Game 1, then that's works for me too.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

Regarding Orlando Brown: take a look at what he does against Aruna, a 6'5 270 lb DE who ran a 4.6 and jumped 39" on his way to a great Combine. Who cares about his 40 or how few reps he hit in the bench press. He didn't allow a sack this season and he's a devastating drive blocker. Don't ask him to pull much, but in a power scheme, he's a Pro Bowler.

 

[luuked]

La’Adrian Waddle has never impressed me in any way. I could easily see a guy like Croston, Garcia, or even a rookie battling him to the end. He may win it, but I doubt he keeps it throughout the season. Just my opinion.

He was on the field during NFL games more than holding his own which is more than Croston or Garcia can say so far. This makes him the frontrunner.

Of course Garcia could be a prodigy and move ahead of Waddle through camp. The thing is that you should not expect that. Experience is extemely valuable in this league and Garcia has none.

I think everyone here wants to see Garcia just knock it out of the park and be our future starter for a couple years but lets not overblow the expectations because this is just a way to be disappointed after W3.

 

[mgteich]

I agree.

If Belichick has Garcia rated higher than the top OT's this year, I see no reason to draft an OT. We would have Cannon, Waddle, Garcia and Tobin, and a 5th IOL who is likely to be an emergency OT.

However, if one of the top four is rated higher than Garcia, I could see an OT pick in the first 50. IMHO, it is a waste of time to draft an OT after that. Crosstown beat out a 6th in a better draft, and Tobin is also likely better than any of the late picks.

This doesn't surprise me at all and it's a drum I've been beating for weeks. Last year was also a strong tackle draft and this year's is a very weak one. If you look at year-to-year ratings by many websites, you'll notice Garcia's grade from last year is higher, sometimes significantly, than guys like Kolton Miller who everybody seems to want the Pstriots to draft simply because he's a tackle and that's an area of perceived need.

I think the best tackle in this year's draft is listed as a guard in Isaiah Wynn and I think Garcia's on par with the likes of McGlinchey. I think Connor Williams is a guard. The only other tackles I like are Orlando Brown and Jamarco Jones. Kolton Miller is ok but he would be a reach for need in round 1. I can see the Patriots taking one of the latter in the 3rd round but I don't see a tackle in the top-4 picks. I don't think any of these players are such an upgrade on Garcia as a prospect that it would justify use of draft capital.

 

[patfanken]

Garcia was the fifth tackle taken in the 2017 draft. He was not one of the first-round left tackles that Belichick talks about.
He was a development project given the uncertainty around Solder - someone who explicitly needed time with Dante. Instead, he missed the entire season and lost 40 pounds. He can be in perfect health and still not be a solid option to protect Brady.
We'd all love it if Garcia starts week one. The Patriots cannot plan on that.

Given he missed all of last season, I don't think anyone is expecting Garcia to emerge at this season's starting LT. And he doesn't have to be. The Pats have 2 very solid OT options in Waddle and Cannon. There are a lot of teams who can't say the same.

Basically, all you are saying is that Garcia looks to be a really athletic development project. We all get that. All this news means is that our very athletic OT prospect is healthy, stronger, and very close to his playing weight 3 months before TC.

It is good news, just not anything earthshattering or impactful. The Pats were looking to get a steal in the 3rd round by going for a small school guy. Nothing has changed, except we are a year later.

 

[Hyped]

Protecting Brady and the QBOTF is pretty important. It doesn't matter how good the D is if Brady is not upright and having time to throw

Agree 100%, but between Garcia, Croston, Waddle, and possibly Cannon...as well as a TE to stay inside and Brady's quick release....we can make something work, IMO.

Brady got killed in Denver in the 2016 AFC title game because we lost Solder and Vollmer moved over...and Vollmer was playing on a bad leg...also Cannon flamed out that year without Scars.

I feel more confident in this current OL than I did in that OL.

My feeling is that either Garcia or Croston will emerge around mid-season. So, we could have some early hiccups with rotating guys in at OT...

I just prefer a KILLER D....if the other team can't do anything...Brady can just hand it off and we can kick figgies....

 

[supafly]

Hence the "unless/until". I'm not "handing" anybody anything for the week-1 roster, that will be revealed 5 months from now.

For now, though, Waddle & Cannon are my "default" starting OTs since they have extensive NFL starting experience and extensive experience in the Pats' system. Tobin's NFL starting experience (and tested athleticism for me) puts just below those two, but his lack of Pats' experience make him "third".

Croston has a bit of live-fire NFL experience and a year of healthy practice in the Pats' system, so he's also a "candidate". However, Garcia and Jelks have nearly zero experience and both have been away from meaningful snaps for a considerable time.

Basing a current, temporary, penciled-in depth chart exclusively on experience is no more (or less) arbitrary than any other method. However, the relative experience of the players currently on the roster is a fact. At this point, anything else is really just subjective evaluation and speculation based on things that only the coaches can possibly know for certain at this point (and even they may not be certain quite yet).

IOW, Waddle is a "placeholder" unless/until someone else produces evidence - that I can see - that they've stepped up and overtaken him.

I wasn’t speaking to you, specifically. It has been suggested by many others that Waddle is the week one starter due to his so-called experience. I simply disagree. I haven’t seen all that much that would suggest that he’s got some big edge due to his experience or superior play.

I will agree that he should be the starter if the following players can’t beat him out for the LT position: 1)Garcia, 2)possible draft pick, 3)Croston,
4)Tobin, and 5)the possibility of moving Cannon.

 

[mgteich]

It seems likely that Cannon will beat out anyone now on the team as the starter at LT.

I wasn’t speaking to you, specifically. It has been suggested by many others that Waddle is the week one starter due to his so-called experience. I simply disagree. I haven’t seen all that much that would suggest that he’s got some big edge due to his experience or superior play.

I will agree that he should be the starter if the following players can’t beat him out for the LT position: 1)Garcia, 2)possible draft pick, 3)Croston,
4)Tobin, and 5)the possibility of moving Cannon.

 

[maineman209]

I wasn’t speaking to you, specifically. It has been suggested by many others that Waddle is the week one starter due to his so-called experience. I simply disagree. I haven’t seen all that much that would suggest that he’s got some big edge due to his experience or superior play.

I will agree that he should be the starter if the following players can’t beat him out for the LT position: 1)Garcia, 2)possible draft pick, 3)Croston,
4)Tobin, and 5)the possibility of moving Cannon.

I wasn't responding to you, specifically, either. Just publicly "detailing my logic".

And I'm not even assigning left tackle, specifically, to anyone. For all I know at the moment, the Pats could start Thuney at LT in week-1 with Croston at LG.

FTR, in terms of NFL-level regular season snaps ...

Cannon = 3200 TOTAL
... 220 of those at LT, 130 at LG, and one full game (86 snaps) at Center

Waddle = 1835 TOTAL (all but 40 at RT)

Tobin = 1670 TOTAL
... 1200 at RG, 380 at LG, 80 at Tackle

Croston = 8 TOTAL
Garcia = zero

 

[supafly]

I wasn't responding to you, specifically, either. Just publicly "detailing my logic".

And I'm not even assigning left tackle, specifically, to anyone. For all I know at the moment, the Pats could start Thuney at LT in week-1 with Croston at LG.

FTR, in terms of NFL-level regular season snaps ...

Cannon = 3200 TOTAL
... 220 of those at LT, 130 at LG, and one full game (86 snaps) at Center

Waddle = 1835 TOTAL (all but 40 at RT)

Tobin = 1670 TOTAL
... 1200 at RG, 380 at LG, 80 at Tackle

Croston = 8 TOTAL
Garcia = zero

Maybe I’m just in denial, but I think the low cost signing of Waddle could just as easily have been to either start at, or back up RT. Who knows, though? I could be grasping at straws in order to try and feel more comfortable about the situation. Either way, it will make for a good battle in the month of August.

Thuney is an interesting possibility that I had considered, but thought that it may be a long shot. As you said, both Cannon and Thuney could be options, with guys like Garcia/Croston/draft pick being in the mix, as well.

 

[Bcc66duece]

Agree 100%, but between Garcia, Croston, Waddle, and possibly Cannon...as well as a TE to stay inside and Brady's quick release....we can make something work, IMO.

Brady got killed in Denver in the 2016 AFC title game because we lost Solder and Vollmer moved over...and Vollmer was playing on a bad leg...also Cannon flamed out that year without Scars.

I feel more confident in this current OL than I did in that OL.

My feeling is that either Garcia or Croston will emerge around mid-season. So, we could have some early hiccups with rotating guys in at OT...

I just prefer a KILLER D....if the other team can't do anything...Brady can just hand it off and we can kick figgies....

We aren't going to have Brady but a couple more years at most so I agree building an elite defense now would be best since we won't have Brady to outscore everyone 2 or 3 years from now

 

[maineman209]

also Cannon flamed out that year without Scars.

It wasn't until the second half of that 2015 season that Cannon actually became the de facto full-time starting RT for the Pats. In his four previous seasons with the team (as Vollmer's backup, primarily), he'd had a total of only 11 starts, including two at LG and one at Center.

It somehow doesn't feel like he's already been with the Pats for seven years or that he's already turning 30 on May 6th.