Former Patriot Brandon Browner Arrested for Kidnapping, Four Other Charges

[Ring 6]

No higher wages are a type of higher expense. They are not mutually exclusive. Wages are an expense.

That’s just ignorant of economic reality.
You believe that a company will over pay its employs and therefore lower its prices?
Why would a company do that? His would it survive? It’s comoetitors would destroy it.

And no, I am saying that lower revenues might be the result of lower prices, not the cause of them, so saying that lower revenues for a company are defacto bad for the country is not a given.

So your company cuts its price in half. Therefore they cut everyone’s pay in half because they can’t afford to survive if they don’t. In what way is this better for our economy?
Again a company that reduces labor cost by using inmates (the basis of this conversation) lowers cost. Any well run business will take that reduced cost and use it for methods to increase revenue.

You are saying a corporation given a 10 million dollar cut in expense would reduce their prices by 10 million dollars and get nothing out of it. Business doesn’t work like that.
And even if they did the net effect is less cost of goods and an equal reduction in income to the employees. You think that’s a good thing?

It was a question, not a statement.

Maybe that’s what you intended but it’s not what you said.

Lulz. Maybe "unprincipled enough"?

His is a corporation, whose existence is for the sake of maximizing profit, whose decision makers have a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders to maximize profit unprincipled because it participates in the opportunity to reduce its costs?
What principle are you saying is lacking ?

Here is a good discussion from a right-leaning publication that sheds some light on this. It appears that the "Percy Amendment" is what started this practice. The prisons do deduct expenses. The companies pay the prevailing minimum wage. The big issue is that they do not pay payroll taxes on those wages because it is not technically "employment", and then there is Kontra's point that minimum wage for things like programming takes jobs away from people in the non-incarcerated American community.

Prison Labor: Laws & Wages Make It Close to Slavery | National Review

Again do you read anything you post?
It can’t be taking jobs away because there is a restriction

In addition to the minimum wage, other conditions imposed by the Percy Amendment are that local labor-union officials must be consulted, and must agree that local non-convict labor is unaffected, and that goods produced in the prison must be from an industry that isn’t experiencing local unemployment.

Please explain how it can be wrong to take prisoners who are costing the tax payers money to house to be given a job, at minimum wage, to help rehabilitate them, PAY THEIR ROOM AND BOARD AND OTHER EXPENSES so tax payers don’t have to, and keep whats left while learning a skill? With the stipulation that it can’t be taking jobs away from people.
What can possibly be wrong with that?
No one is hurt at all.

 

[Ring 6]

Got it national/global income are unrelated to GDP. You're an economic genius.

Comparing salary to GDP and discussing the relationship is not even close to coming global salaries to global income.
Do you understand what the G the D and the P stand for?

That wasn't my claim. Your claim was that higher revenues and lower expenses for a corporation were always good for the country. I was merely stating what should be obvious: that it depends on why either of those things occurred.

No. It depends on understanding economics.
Higher revenue and lower expenses are good for the economy. Any scenario you could make up that would have a different result is a figment of your imagination and not possible in the real world.

 

[Ring 6]

That's every conversation with Andy.

When you have something intelligent to add go ahead.

 

[The Brandon Five]

Comparing salary to GDP and discussing the relationship is not even close to coming global salaries to global income.

Umm, the point of posting the IMF article was to further the discussion about wage share. The drop has not just occurred in the U.S.

Do you understand what the G the D and the P stand for?

God Damned Pedantic?

No. It depends on understanding economics.
Higher revenue and lower expenses are good for the economy. Any scenario you could make up that would have a different result is a figment of your imagination and not possible in the real world.

In your mind micro = macro. I think we're done here.

 

[The Brandon Five]

Again do you read anything you post?
It can’t be taking jobs away because there is a restriction

We already know how companies get around those restrictions for H-1B visas.

Please explain how it can be wrong to take prisoners who are costing the tax payers money to house to be given a job, at minimum wage, to help rehabilitate them, PAY THEIR ROOM AND BOARD AND OTHER EXPENSES so tax payers don’t have to, and keep whats left while learning a skill? With the stipulation that it can’t be taking jobs away from people.
What can possibly be wrong with that?
No one is hurt at all.

I said that I was ok with that. Do you read the posts that you respond to?

 

[Ring 6]

Umm, the point of posting the IMF article was to further the discussion about wage share. The drop has not just occurred in the U.S.

But you posted something about salaries to GDP as if it made a point (which it didn’t) and when I questioned it and how it had anything to do with the discussion or what you think it means you posted a story about global wages to income.
They are entirely different things.
It’s like saying yards per catch has an impact on hot dog sales and then using yards per punt return to explain.

God Damned Pedantic?

Gross Domestic Product. Not a wage measure.

In your mind micro = macro. I think we're done here.

You must be out of articles you don’t
understand to throw out.
I don’t think you understand what macro and micro are and how they relate to each other.
That’s fine we aren’t all Economics majors but you should at least admit you don’t understand the concepts rather than try to fake it.

 

[Ring 6]

We already know how companies get around those restrictions for H-1B visas.

What are you talking about?
You think the laws that allow inmates to work for private companies are being circumvented by visa regulations?

I said that I was ok with that. Do you read the posts that you respond to?

Wait, you now agree that this program is good for the economy and a smart policy?

 

[The Brandon Five]

What are you talking about?
You think the laws that allow inmates to work for private companies are being circumvented by visa regulations?


Wait, you now agree that this program is good for the economy and a smart policy?

Whatever gets you through the night. This discussion has become a misinterpretation and strawman disaster-area.

 

[The Brandon Five]

What are you talking about?
You think the laws that allow inmates to work for private companies are being circumvented by visa regulations?

No, I am saying that is possible to get around those requirements just like companies get around the H-1B requirements.

Wait, you now agree that this program is good for the economy and a smart policy?

No, I am ok with companies being charged at least minimum wage and using the difference to offset prisoner expenses. The situation would have been even worse otherwise. The question of whether it is "good for the economy" is still an open one, IMO. Whether it is good for the companies that are taking advantage is a given. Whether it is ethical is a whole different discussion. Slavery was a boon for the South, should we bring that back?

 

[Ring 6]

Whatever gets you through the night. This discussion has become a misinterpretation and strawman disaster-area.

I agree. Your penchant for posting irrelevant articles as if they have something to do with the topic really took this off the rails.

 

[Ring 6]

No, I am saying that is possible to get around those requirements just like companies get around the H-1B requirements.

So your argument is that nothing is worthwhile because since you can get around some laws all laws are meaningless?
This is a typical type of post you have made.

You are arguing that laws regarding using inmates as labor are irrelevant because another totally unrelated law has been purportedly circumvented.

Earlier you argue business is likely to be corrupt because a guy sold his child.

I mean talk about strawnan.

No, I am ok with companies being charged at least minimum wage and using the difference to offset prisoner expenses. The situation would have been even worse otherwise. The question of whether it is "good for the economy" is still an open one, IMO. Whether it is good for the companies that are taking advantage is a given. Whether it is ethical is a whole different discussion. Slavery was a boon for the South, should we bring that back?

Whether it is good fir the economy is only an open question if you do not understand economics.

Ethical? What is unethical about it?
Do you disagree that if possible inmates should work to earn their keep? Are you saying that someone who commits a crime and goes to prison should have free room and board and no responsibility? That finding them a job to pay for their expenses and requiring them to do so is inhuman and unethical?
Ironic that you bring up strawnan and then compare a program that allows inmates the dignity of working, making money, learning a trade and rehabilitating to slavery.

 

[The Brandon Five]

Gross Domestic Product. Not a wage measure.

Hence the phrase wage share.

You must be out of articles you don’t
understand to throw out.
I don’t think you understand what macro and micro are and how they relate to each other.
That’s fine we aren’t all Economics majors but you should at least admit you don’t understand the concepts rather than try to fake it.

If you paid for a degree in Econ you might want to ask for your money back.

 

[The Brandon Five]

So your argument is that nothing is worthwhile because since you can get around some laws all laws are meaningless?
This is a typical type of post you have made.

You are arguing that laws regarding using inmates as labor are irrelevant because another totally unrelated law has been purportedly circumvented.

No I am arguing that the mere presence of a rule doesn't guarantee that it is being followed (see: your belief that leading the world in incarceration is a good thing).

Earlier you argue business is likely to be corrupt because a guy sold his child.

I mean talk about strawnan.

No. You claimed that perverse incentives were nothing to worry about because the people in corporations are good. I brought up an example based on the work that I do about the capacity that people have for mendacity when $ is involved.

Whether it is good fir the economy is only an open question if you do not understand economics.

Whatever Andy says = good for the economy. Got it.

Ethical? What is unethical about it?
Do you disagree that if possible inmates should work to earn their keep? Are you saying that someone who commits a crime and goes to prison should have free room and board and no responsibility? That finding them a job to pay for their expenses and requiring them to do so is inhuman and unethical?
Ironic that you bring up strawnan and then compare a program that allows inmates the dignity of working, making money, learning a trade and rehabilitating to slavery.

The "dignity" of the program is the question. From the article you claimed I didn't read:

At their root, prison labor problems aren’t always economic. What inmates are saying when they complain that prison labor is slavery is that they feel undervalued and dehumanized. This most recent prisoner strike was about mattering to others as equals, as people, and not being seen as lifeless targets for exploitation. Once people feel like they count — as more than just names on a population sheet — complaints about prison labor won’t necessarily abate, but they will change, and incarcerated people will start demanding the reforms that can actually help them.

 

[Ring 6]

Hence the phrase wage share.

Jesus. You just have no idea what you are talking about.

If you paid for a degree in Econ you might want to ask for your money back.

Seriously you have literally gotten every facet of economics wrong in this conversation.

But here we go again with you deciding you need to abandon discussion and throw out (ignorant and uniformed) insults, so there is no point in talking to you.

 

[Ring 6]

No I am arguing that the mere presence of a rule doesn't guarantee that it is being followed (see: your belief that leading the world in incarceration is a good thing).

Not that it isn’t. In other words you are making up a fantasy and acting like it’s fact.

No. You claimed that perverse incentives were nothing to worry about because the people in corporations are good. I brought up an example based on the work that I do about the capacity that people have for mendacity when $ is involved.

What is a perverse incentive?
When did I ever claim people in corporations are “good”. What does that even mean.
I stated, correctly, that corporations exist to maximize profits.
By the way, “people in corporations” are people. They aren’t a different species.
And yes i do believe that people in general are good which apparently you disagree with.

Whatever Andy says = good for the economy. Got it.

No whatever I’d good for the economy is good for the economy
I happen to understand what is, and you do not.

The "dignity" of the program is the question. From the article you claimed I didn't read:

So INMATES are required to work in order to cover their living expenses, just like everyone else in the world has to do, while getting the opportunity to learn a skill that could help them find a job when they are released and they cry “omg it’s like slavery” and you conclude they aren’t being treated with dignity.
I guess they earned free room and board and health insurance by getting convicted and work is undignified for them.

Are you sure you aren’t a communist? You have communist leaning beliefs.

 

[Ring 6]

No I am arguing that the mere presence of a rule doesn't guarantee that it is being followed (see: your belief that leading the world in incarceration is a good thing).



No. You claimed that perverse incentives were nothing to worry about because the people in corporations are good. I brought up an example based on the work that I do about the capacity that people have for mendacity when $ is involved.




Whatever Andy says = good for the economy. Got it.



The "dignity" of the program is the question. From the article you claimed I didn't read:

By the way your article was written by an ex con.

 

[The Brandon Five]

By the way your article was written by an ex con.

Your favorite people-group that you would like to see more of.

 

[The Brandon Five]

I don't know if you can make the case that it leads to incarceration, though. But it certainly helps MNCs such as a Google and Amazon lower their labor costs and helps the budget. Of that there is absolutely no doubt. Meanwhile, John or Jane Q. Taxpayer, who spent years in school learning to become a data analyst while racking up student loan debt in the process, is out of a job.

Might it not lead to promoting policies that lead to increased incarceration (which was the original discussion)?

 

[The Brandon Five]

Jesus. You just have no idea what you are talking about.



Seriously you have literally gotten every facet of economics wrong in this conversation.

But here we go again with you deciding you need to abandon discussion and throw out (ignorant and uniformed) insults, so there is no point in talking to you.

Insult-wise I'd say I don't hold a candle to you in this forum.

 

[The Brandon Five]

Not that it isn’t. In other words you are making up a fantasy and acting like it’s fact.




What is a perverse incentive?
When did I ever claim people in corporations are “good”. What does that even mean.
I stated, correctly, that corporations exist to maximize profits.
By the way, “people in corporations” are people. They aren’t a different species.
And yes i do believe that people in general are good which apparently you disagree with.

For someone supposedly trained in economics you seem pretty unfamiliar with some basic concepts. Look the term up. Also Google "moral hazard".

No whatever I’d good for the economy is good for the economy
I happen to understand what is, and you do not.

In other words, what I said. Q.E.D.

So INMATES are required to work in order to cover their living expenses, just like everyone else in the world has to do, while getting the opportunity to learn a skill that could help them find a job when they are released and they cry “omg it’s like slavery” and you conclude they aren’t being treated with dignity.
I guess they earned free room and board and health insurance by getting convicted and work is undignified for them.

Are you sure you aren’t a communist? You have communist leaning beliefs.

Nope, I am a libertarian. Libertarians dislike government interference in markets.