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LJRomanoff

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
This logic is ridiculous. The position is deep so we can waste picks.

That wasn't the argument. The argument was that circumstances after the draft (his injury) that could not have been predicted before the draft negatively impacted him to the point where he was unable to find a role at a deep position. Labelling something a "wasted pick" as a result of a situation that did not exist when the draft happened is irrational unless you think it's reasonable for teams to predict future events with a high degree of accuracy.
 

ALP

Pro Bowl Player
This says very little about Dawson as a player....

Our secondary depth is ridiculously good, and we just didn’t have the flexibility to give him more than 1 year in the NFL to see his improvement

You never WILLINGLY leave a 2nd round pick after just one year w then

I would not be surprised or angry if Dawson turns out to be a good corner, we just couldn’t keep him here long enough to see it ourselves
 

Nunchucks

PatsFans.com Supporter
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I mean, he could of drafted a big DT, a backup center, a backup tackle...all three are areas of need right now. Patriots did not really need a slot CB with JJ in the fold. It was a questionable pick when he made it. He basically took the 2nd round pick and lit it on fire....
 

Family

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
It's just poor drafting

It's always a shock pick. Someone who wasn't projected to go for a long time, injured, or from a small school.

Bill seems willing to take the hit for what he must see as a big upside.

Sometimes you get Gronk or Jimmy G and sometimes you get this.

And sometimes you get Harmon or Tavon Wilson who are NFL players.

The strategy seems consistent.
 

203Pat

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
That wasn't the argument. The argument was that circumstances after the draft (his injury) that could not have been predicted before the draft negatively impacted him to the point where he was unable to find a role at a deep position. Labelling something a "wasted pick" as a result of a situation that did not exist when the draft happened is irrational unless you think it's reasonable for teams to predict future events with a high degree of accuracy.

So every single bust should be let off the hook because they got injured? He had a hamstring injury. He was available for the second half of the year and did nothing. He did less than nothing he didn't even suit up. He took up space on the sideline. I love the knots you can tie yourself into to make sure someone isn't labeled a bust or a wasted pick.
 

Froob

Independent Investigator & pliable af
PatsFans.com Supporter
BB just needs to quit drafting rookie CBs in the second round and start getting them only as UDFAs.
Must have some sort of deal that he gets to waste one second round pick a year criticism free.
 

reamer

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
It's always a shock pick. Someone who wasn't projected to go for a long time, injured, or from a small school.

Bill seems willing to take the hit for what he must see as a big upside.

Sometimes you get Gronk or Jimmy G and sometimes you get this.

And sometimes you get Harmon or Tavon Wilson who are NFL players.

The strategy seems consistent.

Sure, but that doesn't obviate the fact that it was still a miss. Your argument is essentially, "Swing for the fences/You win some, you lose some." That's fine; I don't disagree with the strategy. It's different from grading the choice itself, however. Dawson was a bad pick. Full stop.

We overcame the bad pick last year. Next year may be different. That, again, is a separate issue.
 
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Real World

Moderator
Staff member
They really should avoid drafting corners in the 2nd round.

2019 - 2 45 Joejuan Williams
2018 - 2 56 Duke Dawson
2016 - 2 60 Cyrus Jones
2015 - 2 64 Jordan Richards
2012 - 2 48 Tavon Wilson
2011 - 2 33 Ras-I Dowling
2009 - 2 34 Patrick Chung
2009 - 2 41 Darius Butler
2008 - 2 62 Terrence Wheatley
2003 - 2 36 Eugene Wilson
 

LJRomanoff

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
So every single bust should be let off the hook because they got injured?

Generally speaking, things can happen after the draft that alter the career trajectory of the draftee. A player can be the most logical choice at the time he's drafted and therefore be a good pick even if future circumstances don't end up being positive. Saying Player X didn't make the team therefore he was a bad pick is fallacious reasoning because you aren't taking into account any of the other variables.
 

50-yard-line

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
I absolutely despise this type of crap. We do a lot well so who cares what we don't do well. Absolute loser mentality. Good enough.

Do you think Kraft would say to Bill what happened with Dawson and he would just flash his rings smugly and walk away? Do you think Brady would throw a pick and just say "oh well I have 6 rings"? Of course not. Just because you are good does not mean there is no room for improvement.

No. He'd show him a picture of JC Jackson, with Keion Crossen in the background.
 

zydecochris

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Are you trying to hurt Cyrus Jones' feelings here? What is he, chopped liver?

As Ken so astutely pointed out, normally Dawson would have been given more time to produce (certainly beyond his rookie year when he was mostly injured) but it wasn't feasible because the Patriots hit on three UDFAs that developed into quality players, Jackson, J. Jones and Crossen, and when combined with the other strong CB vets it simply wasn't possible to give Dawson a more reasonable time to develop.

IMHO Cyrus Jones was a somewhat similar story. The first year he was thrown to the wolves as a returner and surprisingly (given his return ability in college) seemed to develop the yips and had a lousy rookie year as a returner. The next year (2017) he was injured all year and at the beginning of 2018, coming off of injury, he simply couldn't beat out a group of CBs that included Gilmore, Jason McCourty, J.C. Jackson, J. Jones and Crossen. That is a similar story to Dawson except Dawson had 2nd round pick Williams to compete with also.

However, it isn't like Cyrus Jones is now working at the neighborhood Walmart, he has landed on the Ravens and is expected to be their starting nickel CB, "even though the Ravens' depth chart at cornerback might be one of the deepest position groups on an NFL team."
https://www.al.com/sports/2019/08/cyrus-jones-feeling-really-really-good-with-ravens.html

So: Cyrus Jones appears to be doing fine with the Ravens, he simply got beat out by a bunch of great UDFA CB prospects on the Pats. We will have to see if something similar happens to Dawson on the Broncos.
 
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50-yard-line

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
As Ken so astutely pointed out, normally Dawson would have been given more time to produce (certainly beyond his rookie year when he was mostly injured) but it wasn't feasible because the Patriots hit on three UDFAs that developed into quality players, Jackson, J. Jones and Crossen, and when combined with the other strong CB vets it simply wasn't possible to give Dawson a more reasonable time to develop.

IMHO Cyrus Jones was a somewhat similar story. The first year he was thrown to the wolves as a returner and surprisingly (given his return ability in college) seemed to develop the yips and had a lousy year as a returner. The next year (2017) he was injured all year and at the beginning of 2018, coming off of injury, he simply couldn't beat out a group of CBs that included Gilmore, Jason McCourty, J.C. Jackson, J. Jones and Crossen. That is a similar story to Dawson except Dawson had 2nd round pick Williams to compete with also.

However, it isn't like Cyrus Jones is now working at the neighborhood Walmart, he has landed on the Ravens and is expected to be their starting nickel CB, "even though the Ravens' depth chart at cornerback might be one of the deepest position groups on an NFL team."
https://www.al.com/sports/2019/08/cyrus-jones-feeling-really-really-good-with-ravens.html

So: Cyrus Jones appears to be doing fine with the Ravens, he simply got beat out by a bunch of great UDFA CB prospects on the Pats. We will have to see if something similar happens to Dawson on the Broncos.

Tavon Wilson has had a good career, too.

One point: Crossen was a 7th round pick, not an UDFA.
 

203Pat

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Generally speaking, things can happen after the draft that alter the career trajectory of the draftee. A player can be the most logical choice at the time he's drafted and therefore be a good pick even if future circumstances don't end up being positive. Saying Player X didn't make the team therefore he was a bad pick is fallacious reasoning because you aren't taking into account any of the other variables.
You can twist it however you want. A second round pick being given away for a pack of gum after never suiting up in a game is a waste. With your logic a team can draft a QB first overall every year and then when a QB on the roster turns out to be a good player that means that none of those other guys they took first were wasted picks.

Maybe if Dawson showed one iota of competence last year they wouldn't have drafted Joejuan Williams, or re-signed Jason McCourty. His own crappiness created the depth at corner. He wasn't just a victim of circumstance.
 

Hammer of Thor

PatsFans.com Supporter
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I mean, he could of drafted a big DT, a backup center, a backup tackle...all three are areas of need right now. Patriots did not really need a slot CB with JJ in the fold. It was a questionable pick when he made it. He basically took the 2nd round pick and lit it on fire....
JJ was injured in the 2017 playoffs and the team didn't have a good backup; his absence more so than Butler's may have been the difference between a SB 52 win and a loss (not trying to resuscitate that old thread). The logic of drafting for a JJ backup in case he didn't return to full health or in case he got injured again was sound. The issue is that Dawson himself didn't work out, and that he was a high selection.
 

TommyD4207

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
I mean, he could of drafted a big DT, a backup center, a backup tackle...all three are areas of need right now. Patriots did not really need a slot CB with JJ in the fold. It was a questionable pick when he made it. He basically took the 2nd round pick and lit it on fire....

You draft backup centers in the 2nd round? When did that start?
 
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