Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[amfootball]

So if Brady had signed with the Bengals this offseason and BB took over for Reid in KC we would expect to see the Bengals to be in the playoffs and the Chiefs to be looking at an early draft pick? It has been just Brady all along and the other circumstances around overall talent are irrelevant. Thanks for clearing that up.

No. We would be saying the same thing- Mahomes is the one most responsible for the winning.

 

[holyredeemer]

We closed the BB thread but this one is still open?

 

[carmelo15]

Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees are all time great QB's and have only been to 1 Super Bowl. Both have very good post season stats and have lost games by scores of: 36-41, 32-36, 24-29 (Brees) 45-51, 31-45, (Rodgers). Rodgers has scored 20 or more points in every single post season start yet is only 11-8. Neither of them is as good as Brady or nearly as clutch but roster management and BB's coaching is a big reason why Brady has been to 9 Super Bowls vs their 2.

You literally just said there both not clutch that too is why they haven’t been to 9 Super Bowls. I guarantee you Brady with Peyton is still a dynasty

 

[Doctor DDS]

You literally just said there both not clutch that too is why they haven’t been to 9 Super Bowls. I guarantee you Brady with Peyton is still a dynasty

Not being as clutch as the GOAT does not mean they are not clutch at all. Drew Brees led his team to 18 4th quarter points and the "winning" TD against the 49ers in 2012 with a minute and a half left only to see the defense blow the game with under 10 seconds to go. He led the Saints to 17 4th quarter points including the winning FG with 25 seconds left to "beat" the Vikings in 2017 only to see the miracle catch beat him. He scored a go ahead FG against the Rams in the "bad call" game late only to see the defense give up the tying FG. Rodgers led the Packers to 21 4th quarter points in the game they lost to the Cardinals 51-45 in OT. I am not trying to put Rodgers or Brees in Brady's class but the difference between 9-1 SB's is more than just the difference between Brady and those players. You sometimes you need a great coach and defense to win a Super Bowl 20-17 or 13-3.

 

[captain stone]

I lost my mother unexpectedly about a year ago it is not easy especially when you are in your 20s or 30s to lose a parent.

No it isn't, and I'm sorry for such an early loss for you.

 

[captain stone]

Because the excuse is it's a "bridge" or "rebuilding" year after loses in Free Agency and COVID. Like HT/Chung were going to fix the D all by themselves and Vitale/Marquise Lee were the saviors on Offense.

Bill's excuse of "selling out" is my favorite as there were hardly any big contracts on this team. Surprised the media haven't challenge him on this. Colin Cowherd is the only talking head that has questioned where the money is on his show after looking at the salaries on the roster. He's in the position he's in because he drafts terribly, then has to use future draft capital or waste money in FA on veterans to stop the bleeding. They leave and we're back to square 1.

These are years of f*** ups by Bill that's starting to show up as I predicted well before the season. The media is finally starting to go back in time and realize Bill the GM hasn't been so great contrary to the average fan's belief.

Another overlooked trait of Bill is that he has a terrible habit of ignoring needs while hoarding players that weren't needed and don't last on the team (See 2019/2020 using early picks on DB's when the O was in dire need of playmakers). Tom covered that up for years, but that won't work anymore.


7 for me. It started again in 2013. No Pro Bowlers drafted since 2013. NONE! I would bet anybody on this board could've drafted at least one Pro Bowl player.

Yep...The bolded line above is a feckin sorry-ass excuse as I've ever heard...Did gruff ol' Little Billy Notgoat even ONCE admit that he could've drafted better than he has?!? If he did then apologies in advance..."Selling out" is called DOING YOUR FECKIN JOB BILLY...HELLO?!?

 

[1960Pats]

Not being as clutch as the GOAT does not mean they are not clutch at all. Drew Brees led his team to 18 4th quarter points and the "winning" TD against the 49ers in 2012 with a minute and a half left only to see the defense blow the game with under 10 seconds to go. He led the Saints to 17 4th quarter points including the winning FG with 25 seconds left to "beat" the Vikings in 2017 only to see the miracle catch beat him. He scored a go ahead FG against the Rams in the "bad call" game late only to see the defense give up the tying FG. Rodgers led the Packers to 21 4th quarter points in the game they lost to the Cardinals 51-45 in OT. I am not trying to put Rodgers or Brees in Brady's class but the difference between 9-1 SB's is more than just the difference between Brady and those players. You sometimes you need a great coach and defense to win a Super Bowl 20-17 or 13-3.

That's what makes football the best of all the team sports.
It's not like basketball where one or two dominant players are a sure thing or baseball where one pitcher can carry a team to a 4 game series or hockey where a goalie can 'stand on his head' and shut down even the most powerful offense. In football it takes 50-60 guys working together to win a game.

IMO the Saints loss to the Vikings was the most excruciating. One player made a single boneheaded play and all of their hard work went down the drain. Not only did he miss a simple tackle as time ran out but he also took out his only teammate that could possibly make the winning play. If I were a Saints fan I'd still be having nightmares.

 

[captain stone]

That safety was in the games first possession. I remember it well because it cost me $100,000.00 when I didn't get that bet in before the game. I wanted to but got tied up while going to various bars to get my square numbers.

My belief is that the reason the Pats lost that game was because they got pass-happy against a Giants team that was weak against the run.

I believe it was Upstater in another thread who showed that it was running the ball in the 4th quarter that cost us yards & time, when the Vagiants couldn't handle our short-passing game at that point...I'm usually a Clock-Killin' guy also, but in this case he might have a valid point...
Why we lost SB46:
- Bogus IG penalty...I didn't like the play-call either (I would've attacked the Vagiants left side [top of the screen] with an off-tackle handoff to Law Firm - or better still to Woody in a race to the edge, or a dumpoff to Gronk/Willis Reed), but that hankie should NEVER have been thrown;
- Too Many Men;
- Missing a wide-open Edelman on 3rd/4 inside the Vagiants 10 near the beginning of the 2nd quarter and settling for a FG because of it;
- The Drop (and it was indeed a Drop: the pass was where it should've been but the Receiver wasn't);
- Branch's drop immediately afterwards.

 

[crawhammer]

The most humorous defense of Belichick, that's gaining momentum lately due to all of the other excuses fizzling out, is that "a lesser coach would have gone 1-15" with this sad sack of players. They've had losing streaks of 4 and currently 3 games... that's not reflective of a well-coached team. Good coaching is able to make adjustments from game to game that make a difference. Belichick and the entire coaching staff were thoroughly overmatched by McDermott and company the other night. And that wasn't the first this season that they got spanked by the opposition. What game(s) would they have lost this season if not for Belichick's coaching?

 

[sb1]

The most humorous defense of Belichick, that's gaining momentum lately due to all of the other excuses fizzling out, is that "a lesser coach would have gone 1-15" with this sad sack of players. They've had losing streaks of 4 and currently 3 games... that's not reflective of a well-coached team.

No that’s reflective of a team that has a bad QB and a weak defense. Nothing more.

Good coaching with a bad team still won’t win many games. But good coaching will maximize what they have and in the case of the 2020 Patriots that seems to equal 7 wins or so.

I don’t think that’s all that difficult to understand. I mean you really don’t think this team is good do you?

 

[Lagaffe_07]

7 for me. It started again in 2013. No Pro Bowlers drafted since 2013. NONE! I would bet anybody on this board could've drafted at least one Pro Bowl player.

I’m with you but he did draft Bailey

 

[Biffins]

He's getting thoroughly embarrassed tonight...hell, the entire season really. The players quit on him tonight bigtime. Ouch.

To all the people saying BB wasn’t “fun” to play for I remember Martellus Bennett responding that he had a lot of fun WINNING. Players will tolerate a lot of bs if you’re winning and getting results. If not, your schtick collapses fast.

BB was enabled by Brady’s greatness and the wins Brady generated. Let’s see BB hold together the locker with his spiel now. The players indeed quit on him on MNF.

 

[Biffins]

No that’s reflective of a team that has a bad QB and a weak defense. Nothing more.

Good coaching with a bad team still won’t win many games. But good coaching will maximize what they have and in the case of the 2020 Patriots that seems to equal 7 wins or so.

I don’t think that’s all that difficult to understand. I mean you really don’t think this team is good do you?

BB is GM as well. So if the team is bad that’s on him too. Maybe start with replacing him as GM. His drafts have been awful for years now.

 

[sb1]

BB is GM as well. So if the team is bad that’s on him too. Maybe start with replacing him as GM. His drafts have been awful for years now.

Or listen to different advice. Can’t hurt.

 

[captain stone]

Jonathan should DEMAND that Bill bring in more people from outside the building...His collection of snot-nosed, Division 3-ceiling, nepotism-hire sycophants ain't cutting the mustard.

 

[wizwor]

Really doubtful. By all accounts, Brady started making an impression in his first season. The Pats held onto 4 QBs his first year because they did not want to cut him. He went into season 2 and moved up to #2 on the depth chart behind a QB the Pats had just signed to a 10 year 100 milllion dollar deal. If Bledsoe stays healthy he might have sat for a couple more years. On any team without a franchise QB already in place Brady probably becomes a starter in the same time frame.

Because BILL did not want to cut him. BTW, absent a favorable call on a fumble and heroics by the kicker, the Pats never win that first championship.

 

[crawhammer]

No that’s reflective of a team that has a bad QB and a weak defense. Nothing more.

Good coaching with a bad team still won’t win many games. But good coaching will maximize what they have and in the case of the 2020 Patriots that seems to equal 7 wins or so.

I don’t think that’s all that difficult to understand. I mean you really don’t think this team is good do you?

The team sucks, everyone agrees with that. But the coaching has sucked too, especially on the defensive side of the ball. The strength of their defense is their secondary so they to had force teams into passing and they just couldn't do it.

They rank 27th in run defense, 26th in rushing attempts against, and have the fewest number of pass attempts against which is not playing into their strength. It's up to the coaching staff to scheme up at least a moderately effective run defense that would drive up the pass attempts and create more opportunities for turnovers, etc. They are second in INT's but second to last in forced fumbles. They couldn't stop the run or create turnovers against the run. Abysmal failure by the coaching staff.

The offense is just a horrid mess of personnel. The OL is the only reasonably stacked position group (and free agency is probably going to change that for the worse). There's not much you can do with an offense that is dearth of talent at QB, WR and TE.

However, it's pretty inexcusable that Belichick has so stubbornly stuck with Newton, even with Newton clearly breaking down physically and mentally as a passing quarterback. Newton looked so incredibly inept on Monday night; he just cannot throw a football anymore. Literally cannot throw. And I know Stidham has played like hot garbage in limited opportunities but Belichick should have turned to Stidham full-time after he benched Newton in the Rams game. Stidham could have gotten first team reps and prepared as the starter. Then we could have gotten a more realistic look at Stidham in meaningful game action. By the time he entered the game Monday night, the rest of the team had already quit by halftime.

Newton is not a functional quarterback anymore. Stidham probably sucks but he at least looks to be functional and may have a sliver of hope to run an NFL offense whereas Newton should never take another snap.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

The team sucks, everyone agrees with that. But the coaching has sucked too, especially on the defensive side of the ball. The strength of their defense is their secondary so they to had force teams into passing and they just couldn't do it.

They rank 27th in run defense, 26th in rushing attempts against, and have the fewest number of pass attempts against which is not playing into their strength. It's up to the coaching staff to scheme up at least a moderately effective run defense that would drive up the pass attempts and create more opportunities for turnovers, etc. They are second in INT's but second to last in forced fumbles. They couldn't stop the run or create turnovers against the run. Abysmal failure by the coaching staff.

The offense is just a horrid mess of personnel. The OL is the only reasonably stacked position group (and free agency is probably going to change that for the worse). There's not much you can do with an offense that is dearth of talent at QB, WR and TE.

However, it's pretty inexcusable that Belichick has so stubbornly stuck with Newton, even with Newton clearly breaking down physically and mentally as a passing quarterback. Newton looked so incredibly inept on Monday night; he just cannot throw a football anymore. Literally cannot throw. And I know Stidham has played like hot garbage in limited opportunities but Belichick should have turned to Stidham full-time after he benched Newton in the Rams game. Stidham could have gotten first team reps and prepared as the starter. Then we could have gotten a more realistic look at Stidham in meaningful game action. By the time he entered the game Monday night, the rest of the team had already quit by halftime.

Newton is not a functional quarterback anymore. Stidham probably sucks but he at least looks to be functional and may have a sliver of hope to run an NFL offense whereas Newton should never take another snap.

Unless the big picture view is to get a good pick while still trying 100%...

 

[PatsFanSince74]

It's a silly question, really, because without a Franchise QB even the best HC's are going to put up mediocre to pretty good numbers at best.

The real question is what the HC did with the talent when he had a Franchise QB.

Shula had ten seasons with Marino and didn't win a single SB (though he won one with Morrall). Plus, seven with Unitas, winning none.
Dungy had seven with P. Manning and won one.
Walsh, eight with Montana and won three.
Noll, 13 with Bradshaw and won four.
Landry, eight with Staubach and won two.
Lombardi, nine with Starr and won two SB's and two NFL Championships.
Johnson, five with Aikman and won three...fired in the greatest miscarriage of management until Daniel Snyder and Woody Johnson acquired franchises.

Belichick, 18 seasons with Brady as QB, won six and went to nine.

Pretty difficult not to put Belichick at the head of the HC class and Brady at the head of the QB class. It's impossible to make an argument for who was more important. They both were.

PS: Too bad that that idiot Jerry Jones cut Jimmy Johnson off at the knees. We'll never know...

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

Jonathan should DEMAND that Bill bring in more people from outside the building...His collection of snot-nosed, Division 3-caliber, nepotism-hire sycophants ain't cutting the mustard.

We’ve been poached in this area for far too long now. Time for the poachees to become the poachers.