Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[Vindicate]

Great post. You may want to check the TDs again. I am fairly certain it is more than 4 over those 4 SBs in the fourth quarter and OT.
He had 2 in SB 49 and 3 in SB 51. Then 1 in SB 53. I can't remember how many vs Philly but I think at least 2.

I could not agree more with your last statemeunt. Bill's legacy will be determined but how he does without Brady not how Brady does without him given he is 43. But man is Brady having himself a season. That definitely hurts Bill as well because he moved on from him to awful Cam.

There is absolutely no reason why Brady shouldn't have great numbers given that we know he still has some juice (and some of Brady is still great) with an incredibly stacked offense.

It is actually MORE impressive that Bill managed to give us hope for the playoffs this year!

The two situations are very different. Brady is old, but was shipped to a stacked team, who most of their losses can be attributed to subpar coaching. Bill has the worst QB in the league, the worst WR corps in the league, the worst TE's in the league, a weak front 7, an injury riddled season for his star CB, and we still had a shot for the playoffs up until last week, in a division with two surging teams in the Bills and Dolphins, and a season where we faced the Rams, 49ers, Seahawks, and Chiefs. All of which were close except 9ers and Rams.

It is nothing short of impressive, if not incredible, that this team has managed to keep this season alive for as long as it did.

 

[crawhammer]

The only difference between Brady this year and Brady last year was the arm injury.
Half way through, 3/4 of the way through, the numbers were very similar but Brady fell apart over the second half of the season because he was injured (and playing in the northeast).
A GOAT QB declines die to injury. The risk of injury is greater with every year of age. Brady was completely ineffective the second half of last year.

The offense was a total disaster by the end of the season. They had no functional TE. Sanu was hobbled, ineffective and generally not a good fit. N'Keal Harry was a non-contributing 1st round pick (an all too familiar occurrence). Dorsett had no juice left. Edelman was no longer reliable due to the dropsies. For God sake Brady was targeting Elandon Roberts. Despite all that Brady still had a TD/INT ratio of 11 to 4 in the second half of the season so Brady was not nearly as ineffective as you're suggesting.

 

[Boomer B]

There is absolutely no reason why Brady shouldn't have great numbers given that we know he still has some juice (and some of Brady is still great) with an incredibly stacked offense.

It is actually MORE impressive that Bill managed to give us hope for the playoffs this year!

The two situations are very different. Brady is old, but was shipped to a stacked team, who most of their losses can be attributed to subpar coaching. Bill has the worst QB in the league, the worst WR corps in the league, the worst TE's in the league, a weak front 7, an injury riddled season for his star CB, and we still had a shot for the playoffs up until last week, in a division with two surging teams in the Bills and Dolphins, and a season where we faced the Rams, 49ers, Seahawks, and Chiefs. All of which were close except 9ers and Rams.

It is nothing short of impressive, if not incredible, that this team has managed to keep this season alive for as long as it did.

Brady went to a team that hasn’t made the playoffs in 13 years. Bill’s team hasn’t missed the playoffs in 12 years. Brady’s team is now in the playoffs. Bill’s team is now out of the playoffs. The common denominator with the teams that make the playoffs is Brady.

 

[sb1]

Come on, you said yourself Belichick the coach has had a down year. They play the Jets twice so that's two layups. Their run defense has been putrid this season; that's not the sign of a well-coached team. Too many games when they failed to scheme up a defense to stop the run when they knew it coming. They lost three consecutive games this season when the opposing quarterbacks combined for 0 TD's and 5 INT's... that's nearly impossible.

I agree. So imagine where they would be in 2020 if it was a lesser coach. Like say... McDaniels.

0-16 in play for sure. Jets aren’t quite the layup that they looked a couple of weeks ago...

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I agree. So imagine where they would be in 2020 if it was a lesser coach. Like say... McDaniels.

0-16 in play for sure. Jets aren’t quite the layup that they looked a couple of weeks ago...

We have not scored a touchdown offensively in over two games.

our defense has given up over 200 yards a game on the ground,

We have newton throwing the football to a bunch of fire hydrants.

Our two rookie tight ends are the worst starters in football.

how can you think we have a chance against Buffalo or the Jets!

 

[TheRainMaker]

But we make it seem like we would be okay with any coach with brady ?

I won't go that far as they were a great pair, but we'd never know how good of a Coach BB was if he didn't get competent QB play in 2001 after an 0-2 start in 2001. Back in those days, it was a death wish for teams to not make the playoffs if your team started off 0-2. And nobody on this board seems to answer why BB couldn't get the most out of Bledsoe who just signed a $100M contract? But somehow a random 2nd year 6th round pick stabilizes the offense enough to keep them in games (not lose it).

Maybe if the pats dont win the SB in the next 2 yrs, we should fire BB i guess ?

Bill's focus needs to be on finding a QB first, then building the rest of the roster out and finding a way to make the playoffs. BB for once in the last 20 years have real threats in the division and they are the Bills and Dolphins. In fact, the Pats are doing something they haven't done in 20 years and that's looking up to other teams within their division. I'm not going to be unrealistic and want to fire BB if they don't win a Super Bowl in 2 years, but he needs to show some upside and at least make the playoffs.

Much of the early SB wins were a team effort with a great defense and coaching.

The first Super Bowl run had the perfect storm in their favor against the Raiders. Had their been clear skies, the Raiders would've ran them off the field as BB does not do well against West Coast style offenses. The Raiders showed us what would've happened in 2002. Steelers win looked like a fluke, but the Pats have been a nightmare for the Steelers ever since.

But yes, 03' and '04 were better versions of 2001 with the formula of a good D, good coaching heavy ground game and Brady being efficient at QB.

 

[50-yard-line]

I really dont know about the playoffs . If brady was open to playing with meyers and harry and byrd and put his mind to it then yes. With harris running , and threat of brady passing it wouldve been quite good. But i think brady wouldve been more frustrated at the passing game without jules and bunch of young guys to throw to and it wouldve made it worse with him getting mad on the sidelines and with this defense without a front 4 .
Only reason he couldve stayed is for sentimental value of finishing here but that was never happening.

I like this post a lot.

Brady had to leave. If the Pats had wanted to keep him, in addition to paying him for three years, they would have had to approach the O differently and actually get some proven talent into the building.

They didn't do that. Brady wasn't having it. For his sake, he had to leave.

 

[Vindicate]

Brady went to a team that hasn’t made the playoffs in 13 years. Bill’s team hasn’t missed the playoffs in 12 years. Brady’s team is now in the playoffs. Bill’s team is now out of the playoffs. The common denominator with the teams that make the playoffs is Brady.

That's reductionist, and doesn't do justice to the nuance of either situation.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Jets aren’t quite the layup that they looked a couple of weeks ago...

This might be the one reason why BB will not bench Cam this late in the season for Stidum. He'll take his chances with a veteran QB as he really doesn't want to lose to the Jets being one of the worst teams in football. It would be a very bad look for him.

 

[Boomer B]

That's reductionist, and doesn't do justice to the nuance of either situation.

 

[Vindicate]

I appreciate you taking my terse response in stride and not going for my neck. Thank you for engaging in dispute and not taking it incredibly personally lol.

 

[Thelonious]

Bill is a great coach, but a mediocre GM. In evaluating his contributions, you can't overlook the GM component.

Even aside from that, the statistical breakdown in the OP makes the case incontrovertibly: Brady has been more valuable than Bill. He still is, but he ain't here, which is another debit on Bill's side of the ledger.

I'll repeat, though, that Bill is a great coach, no doubt about it. I wish, however, that he were wise enough to fire his GM or at least to empower more fully those who work with him.

 

[sb1]

This might be the one reason why BB will not bench Cam this late in the season for Stidum. He'll take his chances with a veteran QB as he really doesn't want to lose to the Jets being one of the worst teams in football. It would be a very bad look for him.

Maybe. Bottom line- if Stid was good he would be the starter over a guy who can’t throw. He is not the starter. Therefore, there is only one very simple and logical conclusion to draw from that.

No need to overthink it or analyze it too deeply. The simplest explanation is most often the correct one, and in this case it is.

 

[sb1]

Bill is a great coach, but a mediocre GM. In evaluating his contributions, you can't overlook the GM component.

Even aside from that, the statistical breakdown in the OP makes the case incontrovertibly: Brady has been more valuable than Bill. He still is, but he ain't here, which is another debit on Bill's side of the ledger.

I'll repeat, though, that Bill is a great coach, no doubt about it. I wish, however, that he were wise enough to fire his GM or at least to empower more fully those who work with him.

I believe Bill is very aware of what Brady is doing in TB and how that is being compared to his team’s season. And that’s a great thing for the Patriots. That’s motivation to start to do the necessary things to fix this mess. Such as turning to a different direction for help when looking for players to draft here.

 

[Thelonious]

Lennon was great separately.

Some of his best was created post Beatles. Mcartney was good post Beatles, but not on Lennon's level. Just compare Lennon's Christmas song to McCartney's for example. No contest.

Lennon's stuff is a little edgier, maybe more intelligent.

McCartney, like most handsome men, is very much on the shallow side. (heh heh) His stuff is kinda pretty and sappy.

Ringo got lucky.

George is my favorite. I can take or leave the Kosmic Hindu Boy schtick, but I love his beautifully distilled guitar playing. (My alpha hobby is guitar playing.)

 

[Thelonious]

There is absolutely no reason why Brady shouldn't have great numbers given that we know he still has some juice (and some of Brady is still great) with an incredibly stacked offense.

It is actually MORE impressive that Bill managed to give us hope for the playoffs this year!

The two situations are very different. Brady is old, but was shipped to a stacked team, who most of their losses can be attributed to subpar coaching. Bill has the worst QB in the league, the worst WR corps in the league, the worst TE's in the league, a weak front 7, an injury riddled season for his star CB, and we still had a shot for the playoffs up until last week, in a division with two surging teams in the Bills and Dolphins, and a season where we faced the Rams, 49ers, Seahawks, and Chiefs. All of which were close except 9ers and Rams.

It is nothing short of impressive, if not incredible, that this team has managed to keep this season alive for as long as it did.

Well yes, they are still alive. There is that.

Nobody died, but that's a pretty low standard for an evaluation of "impressive, if not incredible."

 

[Thelonious]

This might be the one reason why BB will not bench Cam this late in the season for Stidum. He'll take his chances with a veteran QB as he really doesn't want to lose to the Jets being one of the worst teams in football. It would be a very bad look for him.

There is certainly "one reason" why Bill continues to allow Cam to stumble around out there and launch the ball randomly all around the ballyard: nobody's perfect, not even Bill, not, I'm beginning to think, even close.

 

[Tony2046]

I understand brady is a major part of the pats success. But we make it seem like we would be okay with any coach with brady ? Maybe if the pats dont win the SB in the next 2 yrs, we should fire BB i guess ?
Much of the early SB wins were a team effort with a great defense and coaching. Much of the later wins were with brady. Its not all one person.

I agree.

I'd go further and apply that same type of distribution of "credit" throughout every game over the last twenty years.

 

[festy1986]

Would Brady have been going rogue and running for 1st downs like Cam was to keep us in the Buffalo game? Brady would have almost exclusively relied on passing on a team that can’t pass.

This team is playing a lot more winning teams than last year. Brady realistically would have at best gotten us to 9-7 this year. 10-6 even wouldn’t get us in the playoffs. And that’s assuming a lot.

Brady struggles against Miami and is liable every year to lose a game to them, he has struggled against some mediocre Broncos teams, he lost to the Texans last year by a similar score (as SB1 pointed out), he lost to Seattle on the goal line when he had a much better team, he lost to the Chiefs last year, nothing was going to keep us in the Rams or 49’ers games. I can buy that Brady equals 1 or 2 more wins, but this is the worst Pats team since Bill took over and would have been the worst team Brady was part of. And quite frankly, this team is not built for a pocket passer to succeed in.

You said the games wouldn't of unfolded the same. So I dono what he would of done.

Surely you aren't saying this team is better with cam then brady. No one would actually make that claim right?

 

[Tony2046]

Bill is a great coach, but a mediocre GM. In evaluating his contributions, you can't overlook the GM component.

Even aside from that, the statistical breakdown in the OP makes the case incontrovertibly: Brady has been more valuable than Bill. He still is, but he ain't here, which is another debit on Bill's side of the ledger.

I'll repeat, though, that Bill is a great coach, no doubt about it. I wish, however, that he were wise enough to fire his GM or at least to empower more fully those who work with him.

Yeah this is just another curmudgeonous hawt take shot at BB during a reset season.

Patriots are fantastic with cap space management, FA signings and other aspects of team building. All of which are GM responsibilities. Yes there have been some poor drafts recently but the last two look good.

But please continue to posting the " BB the GM Sucks" stuff for future copy and paste material.