Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[fnordcircle]

The reason the current team is devoid of talent falls on the GM.

Who is the GM again?

It's not like picking players in the draft and FA are things that happen in a vacuum. Drafting at the end of every round (when you're allowed to draft) and getting our players poached by various clubs are huge impediments to remaining eternally competitive.

I don't know why this **** is always black and white for people? Is it merely about feeling right on the internet?

The team has not done well with its drafts of late. The team has also not been drafting in ideal positions and the team has watched as players like Van Noy get more than they could ever afford. We also had a league high number of opt outs.

Pinning our current roster woes on one particular issue reeks of internet grudge bs.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

This thread is terrible.

We knew before the season started it was a rebuild year. Had 25M in dead cap and 8 players including Hightower, Chung, Cannon opted out. Meanwhile Brady went to a loaded all star team to get as many stats as possible.

If we're going to have this silly debate then it has to be 12 months from now or even later. And we have to acknowledge Brady isn't Tim Duncan or Shaq, he barely made it into the NFL. Belichick gets all the credit for the fact Brady even has a career. Just like Edelman, Meyers, JC Jackson, Malcolm Butler owe their careers as well. Without Belichick Tom likely is selling insurance for his dad's company starting in 2002 or 2003.

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[carmelo15]

We’re not sniffing the division title for a while that answers your question

 

[amfootball]

Completely. Your version of who and what Brady means to this franchise makes me question if you watched 2001 or just the highlights. I love Brady, wouldn’t want any other QB starting for my team, but to act like he came out as a win every game cuz of him star right off the bat is insane. My point is just for that year I would say Antwain Smith had more to do with making the playoffs then Tom Brady, and Belichick would have turned it around with any average plus QB cuz the TEAM he built was well coached, and believed in what he was selling. Now would they have won the Super Bowl with just any QB, no probably not, TB12 is probably the most clutch QB of all time and they needed that. It just bothers me the stats you are throwing around about Bill without Tom seem to completely discount how much Brady benefited from the well rounded, disciplined, deep teams that BB built even from his first year here.

Buddy, he went 14-3 in year one. Won his last 9 in a row including two GWDs in the playoffs securing our first Lombardi. You do realize that the 2001 roster is one of the worst if not the worst rosters to ever win a Super Bowl? Brady was the only change after starting 0-2 and you say any average QB could have won? Did you forget we had Bledsoe who Bill benched when he was healthy in favor of Brady?

 

[amfootball]

This thread is terrible.

We knew before the season started it was a rebuild year. Had 25M in dead cap and 8 players including Hightower, Chung, Cannon opted out. Meanwhile Brady went to a loaded all star team to get as many stats as possible.

If we're going to have this silly debate then it has to be 12 months from now or even later. And we have to acknowledge Brady isn't Tim Duncan or Shaq, he barely made it into the NFL. Belichick gets all the credit for the fact Brady even has a career. Just like Edelman, Meyers, JC Jackson, Malcolm Butler owe their careers as well. Without Belichick Tom likely is selling insurance for his dad's company starting in 2002 or 2003.

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It will be worse 12 months from now. We are not overtaking the Bills anytime soon and Miami is also ahead of us. We are most likely looking at another third place finish next year while Brady wins the South given Brees will retire at seasons end.

 

[amfootball]

Brady's cumulative stats in the 4th Quarter and Overtime of Super Bowls 49, 51, 52 & 53 (essentially a full game):

47-63 (75%)
538 Yards
4 TD's
0 INT's
121.0 QBR

Brady's greatest asset of many is his capacity to come through in the clutch. He led game-winning drives in all 6 of their Super Bowl titles. He led would-be game-winning drives in the other 3 games but the defenses squandered the leads. Belichick totally submarined SB 52 with the inexplicable benching of Butler. Brady is the only quarterback in the history of the league that could have pulled off the comeback wins of SB 49 and 51. Remember too, he pulled off that miracle against Atlanta with no Gronk. And eclipsed 500 yards in SB 52 without Edelman and Cooks departing early with an injury.

SB 53 was mostly a dud. However, the Patriots drive that mattered the most, they drove down the field through the air until Sony fell through a canyon at the goal line. Goff was a total mess in this game and his receivers didn't help him out either.

The more memorable victory of the 2018 postseason came in the AFC Championship Game at KC. That may have been their most improbable postseason victory. Brady was nails on the game-winning drive with the three 3rd-and-10 completions. In total they converted 13 of 19 third-down plays in the game.

The accolades and signature moments are endless for Brady. And it's factual, the team dropped like a stone the very first season he departed; it's on Belichick to make up for the dearth of talent or his legacy will certainly take a hit... not on this Forum but in reality. Frankly if Brady underperforms now, he has an out, he's still trying to remain elite at friggin 43 (and thus far mostly succeeding). Belichick, no excuses. And there's a conga line of detractors ready to dance allover his grave.

Great post. You may want to check the TDs again. I am fairly certain it is more than 4 over those 4 SBs in the fourth quarter and OT.
He had 2 in SB 49 and 3 in SB 51. Then 1 in SB 53. I can't remember how many vs Philly but I think at least 2.

I could not agree more with your last statemeunt. Bill's legacy will be determined but how he does without Brady not how Brady does without him given he is 43. But man is Brady having himself a season. That definitely hurts Bill as well because he moved on from him to awful Cam.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

I could not agree more with your last statemeunt. Bill's legacy will be determined but how he does without Brady not how Brady does without him given he is 43. But man is Brady having himself a season. That definitely hurts Bill as well because he moved on from him to awful Cam.

So Bill's legacy is on the line but Tom's is not? if anything, Tom needs to go deep into the playoffs to show he can do it without Bill. Montana did it on another team. So did Manning. So did Favre. Brady’s regular season success doesn't count since the Bucs are playing a ridiculously easy schedule, and when they play a tough team they end up losing more often than not.

 

[RobertWeathers]

So Bill's legacy is on the line but Tom's is not? Tom needs to go deep into the playoffs to show he can do it without Bill. Montana did it on another team. So did Manning. So did Favre. The regular season doesn't count since the Bucs are playing a ridiculously easy schedule, and when they play a tough team they end up losing more often than not.

Montana had no chance at going to a SB w/ Schottsie as HC. Total non-starter.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Great post. You may want to check the TDs again. I am fairly certain it is more than 4 over those 4 SBs in the fourth quarter and OT.
He had 2 in SB 49 and 3 in SB 51. Then 1 in SB 53. I can't remember how many vs Philly but I think at least 2.

I could not agree more with your last statemeunt. Bill's legacy will be determined but how he does without Brady not how Brady does without him given he is 43. But man is Brady having himself a season. That definitely hurts Bill as well because he moved on from him to awful Cam.

Garbage.

Bill's legacy is completely secure.

I don't see anyone saying, "yea but.." because Lombardi, Noll and Landry didn't win a SB w/o Starr, Bradshaw and Staubach.

 

[The Brandon Five]

If BB had those offensive weapons plus TB12 we would have been talking about 19-0 this season

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Montana had no chance at going to a SB w/ Schottsie as HC. Total non-starter.

Taking his team to the AFCCG was impressive, considering their offense was an old Marcus Allen and a bunch of stiffs at WR. On D, they had Neil Smith and Derrick Thomas, but that's about it. Brady, on the other hand, has an embarrassment of riches in Tampa...much moreso than Montana, Favre, or Manning did with their second teams. Not getting to the SB would be a complete failure for Brady IMO.

 

[RodThePat]

Taking his team to the AFCCG was impressive, considering their offense was an old Marcus Allen and a bunch of stiffs at WR. On D, they had Neil Smith and Derrick Thomas, but that's about it. Brady, on the other hand, has an embarrassment of riches in Tampa...much moreso than Montana, Favre, or Manning did with their second teams. Not getting to the SB would be a complete failure for Brady IMO.

What? This is the worst take of this thread. Peyton Manning had a much better team in Denver than Brady does in Tampa, how is this even arguable? Also, the Vikings had a really, really good team when Favre went there, perfectly comparable to this year's Bucs. It's not like Antonio Brown and Gronk are anywhere near their primes and both Godwin and Evans have been injured at multiple times this season. The team isn't anywhere near as loaded as you're making them out to be.

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

We’re not sniffing the division title for a while that answers your question

Shouldn’t we wait and see what kind of moves are made in the offseason before making this judgment? For all we know we could knock it out of the park this offseason and turn a 6/7 win team into a 10-6 type team which would compete for the division.

 

[Ryan]

It was the combination of the two. No other coach/qb combo has won 6 Super Bowls (next closest is 4) or gone to 9 Super Bowls (next closest is also 4 I believe). So is Brady really SO ridiculously better than all of the other greatest QBs of all time to where he could take a team to 9 Super Bowls, almost double what the next closest did (Elway)? I do believe he is without a doubt, hands down the greatest QB ever, but having the greatest coach of all time is what put him and the Patriots over the top to 9 Super Bowl appearances. On their own, I think they both would've gone to a few Super Bowls. It was the ungodly combo of them together that resulted in what we saw over the last 20 years (and will probably never see again in the NFL).

 

[SHOWTIME15]

What? This is the worst take of this thread. Peyton Manning had a much better team in Denver than Brady does in Tampa, how is this even arguable? Also, the Vikings had a really, really good team when Favre went there, perfectly comparable to this year's Bucs. It's not like Antonio Brown and Gronk are anywhere near their primes and both Godwin and Evans have been injured at multiple times this season. The team isn't anywhere near as loaded as you're making them out to be.

I may give you Manning, but this year's Bucs teams is better in paper than Favre's Vikings and Montana's Chiefs by a long shot.
Favre had very little talent around him compared to what Brady has in Tampa - Brown, Gronk, Evans, Godwin, Brate, McCoy, Jones, and Fournette. Is this even a question?

 

[JarOfMayo51]

So Bill's legacy is on the line but Tom's is not? if anything, Tom needs to go deep into the playoffs to show he can do it without Bill. Montana did it on another team. So did Manning. So did Favre. Brady’s regular season success doesn't count since the Bucs are playing a ridiculously easy schedule, and when they play a tough team they end up losing more often than not.

Brady's legacy is fully intact. He is 43 years old, most didn't even expect him to be able to continue to play at this age with any level of effectiveness and he has proven that wrong so far

Montana won some playoff games on the Chiefs but never won a SB, and no one ever really cares or talks about Montana's final years as a Chief when talking about his career/legacy, its just an afterthought

Manning went to a loaded Broncos that Tim Tebow was able to get to the Divisional round of the playoffs the year before they got him. He took the team just as far as Tebow did, with a loss in the divisional round

 

[sb1]

Both their legacies are secure. Unless say Brady pops positive for PEDs for some reason.

The narrative will be out there though. At the very least it gives fans something to talk about.

 

[borg]

Buddy, he went 14-3 in year one. Won his last 9 in a row including two GWDs in the playoffs securing our first Lombardi. You do realize that the 2001 roster is one of the worst if not the worst rosters to ever win a Super Bowl? Brady was the only change after starting 0-2 and you say any average QB could have won? Did you forget we had Bledsoe who Bill benched when he was healthy in favor of Brady?

Regarding your "Brady was the only change after starting 0-2" statement, your memory has selectively excluded what some (me) consider the single most important piece of the 2001 puzzle, Richard Seymour, inserted into the starting lineup around week 4 or 5 (my memory gets blurred too).
As a starter, Seymour instantly elevated the Patriots defense into what many categorize as Bill's best NE defense. Big Sey's dominance/versatility was the foundation for Bill's morphing schemes that reeked havoc on the league in 2001 and most of that decade.
Big Sey had a major impact on special teams in 2001 as well; FG blocks in back-to-back games in November.

And it was primarily because of the team's dominant defense and excellent special teams that NE moved forward in the 2001 playoffs despite a very below average Brady-run offense.

How below average you ask?

vs Oak........3 FGs, 1 rushing TD (Brady)
vs Pitt..........1 Punt return TD (Brown), 1 Passing TD (Bledsoe to Patten), 1 Blocked FG TD (Harris), 1 FG
vs SL.............1 INT TD (Law), 1 Passing TD (Brady to Patten), 2 FGs

To summarize:
Of the 6 TDs scored by NE in the 2001 playoffs, the Brady-led offense managed 2 of the 6 TDs.....aka..... 4 pts/game
Vinatieri directly outscored Brady 24-12 in the 3 games.
Special teams equaled Brady 12-12.

To put Brady's anemic scoring output into context, Brady's 1 passing TD in these 3 playoff games is almost but not quite on par with Cam Newton's 5 passing TDs in 13 games this season.
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Regarding your "the 2001 roster is one of the worst if not the worst rosters to ever win a Super Bowl" statement, currently 8 players (4 offensive) from the 2001 team are in the Patriots Hall of Fame with several more waiting in the wings to be no doubt enshrined in due course.

 

[Grogan14]

Both their legacies are secure. Unless say Brady pops positive for PEDs for some reason.

The narrative will be out there though. At the very least it gives fans something to talk about.

This. Can not reasonably compare a star QB to a head coach. Its apples and oranges.
Can we not be satisfied with both are all time greats for their respective roles?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Taking his team to the AFCCG was impressive, considering their offense was an old Marcus Allen and a bunch of stiffs at WR. On D, they had Neil Smith and Derrick Thomas, but that's about it. Brady, on the other hand, has an embarrassment of riches in Tampa...much moreso than Montana, Favre, or Manning did with their second teams. Not getting to the SB would be a complete failure for Brady IMO.

Those Chiefs teams were consistently a very good club. I wouldn't understate them.