Butler & Saints working towards finalizing a deal (Thread now UFC Pats Fans Event)

[QuantumMechanic]

I think Pat Kirwan has got this particular take badly wrong. Bill Belichick is not in the business of bending over to do his buddies a solid.

How do you get out of that that Belichick is doing anyone a solid??

It asserts that:

• BB and Payton agreed to do Butler + 3rd for Cooks + 4th.
• Butler part fell through at the time, so it was done with the NE #32 as a placeholder for Butler
• NE would prefer to have the #32 and NO would prefer to have Butler
• Thus if they can, the teams will trade Butler for the #32 to finish the trade.

The only thing it asserts is that BB wants to finish off the trade he agreed to. Now, you can argue with the wisdom of Butler + 3rd for Cooks + 4th, but if they agreed to it, why shouldn't BB finish off the trade? He was fine with it then, why wouldn't he be fine with it now? Presumably he agreed to the trade because, among other things, he knew NO wouldn't give up the #11 and so offer sheets were irrelevant. NE putting the #11 as a sticker price on Butler in an NO trade is no different than a car dealer putting a sticker price on some car you want. That's nice and all, but the entity slapping on the sticker price isn't entitled to the sticker price and if no one wants to pay it and the entity still wants the transaction to happen, he'll have to come down off the sticker.

All the "BB would be screwing NE and doing a favor to Payton by taking the #32 because NE would get the #11 if NO signed Butler to an offer sheet" people seem to have some magic belief that NO would actually give Butler that offer sheet. If neither Payton nor BB think Butler is worth the #11 pick why would you think the #11 pick has any relevance whatsoever? If BB thought Butler was worth the #11 he never would have allegedly agreed to the Butler + 3rd for Cooks + 4th trade in the first place.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Slow news week.Trying to have fun with a possible connect the dots.

2015 NFL Draft Profile: Stephone Anthony

Anyone know anything on this player? 2015 1st round pick but hasn't done a whole lot. Saints gave A.J. Klein good money & just signed Te'o. Maybe he could be involved in a potential trade.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

This narrative that the Pats won't "give up" the #11 pick and settle for the 32 is ridiculous. The fact that the Saints would have to give up #11 to sign Butler as an RFA is completely unrelated to his trade value from the Saints or any other team.

THANK YOU!

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Questions for everyone who thinks the Patriots are going to dig their heels in for the #11 pick in the draft:

1. How many players have been given a first-round tender in the last 8-10 years and signed on with another team, with their new team willing to give up their first round pick?

2. Do you believe that, of all the franchise-type players who received a first-round tender, Malcolm Butler would be the one who breaks this tradition (of no one even considering giving up their first round pick) because he is that good?

I think it's crazy to believe the Patriots are going to get the Saints #11 overall pick. In addition to the fact that teams never give up their first round picks to sign an RFA, (a) this is a very strong draft, and (b) the Saints pick is #11; it's not like they are picking late in the first round. Any reports that the Patriots are expecting the #11 overall pick can be explained by their justified paranoia that they will be accused and punished for talking about an unsigned player. To cover for this, they are going by the book, which is that since they haven't talked to the Saints, they would follow NFL protocol which is that the Saints would give up their own first round pick. That hardly means they actually mean that or expect to get it. If they said anything otherwise, it looks fishy, like a deal was already worked out.

Teams treat their first round picks like a pot of gold. That being said, it is possible the Saints are willing to trade #31 back to the Patriots, as that move would make more sense.

Chandler Jones got us a second round pick last year...he is considered an elite pass rusher and would have at least as high a market value as Butler, probably even higher. Although Arizona did not have a long-term deal in place with him which may have increased the trade risk, they seemed quite sure they would sign him to a long-term deal and break the bank.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

The answer to your first question is a big fat zero. In fact, the last time it happened was 13 years ago.

 

[NashuaPats]

The answer to your first question is a big fat zero. In fact, the last time it happened was 13 years ago.

Who was that?

 

[PatriotReign]

Who was that?

Redskins gave a first to the Jest for Laveranues Coles

 

[Bourne Again Christian]

Forgot about that

 

[jah]

Slow news week.Trying to have fun with a possible connect the dots.

2015 NFL Draft Profile: Stephone Anthony

Anyone know anything on this player? 2015 1st round pick but hasn't done a whole lot. Saints gave A.J. Klein good money & just signed Te'o. Maybe he could be involved in a potential trade.

From what I've read, Anthony has been a major bust. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if he was a throw-in for any Patriots-Saints trade considering our lack of LB depth. But he doesn't have trade value on his own.

 

[Thelonious]

A year of Butler at his present salary, along with the extended opportunity over that year to sign him long term, is worth more to me than the 32nd pick, which is a pick high enough to cost a substantial sum, but low enough that the player cannot be anything like a "sure thing." There are no sure things at 11 either, of course, but your odds go up, at least, so that the substantial contract ( as rookie contracts go) might be justified at the lower level of risk of a bust. I'd think about trading him for 11, but even there, I'd probably keep him. The clincher is that in keeping him, we get his services as a player for that year. It is easy to forget, as we parse out pick value, salaries, compensatory stuff, etc. that he's a pretty good player, under contract at a good price. Sometimes the obvious stuff is more important than the sophisticated stuff. Thinking it through,I'd keep him: talked myself into it!

 

[Tuck]

Questions for everyone who thinks the Patriots are going to dig their heels in for the #11 pick in the draft:

1. How many players have been given a first-round tender in the last 8-10 years and signed on with another team, with their new team willing to give up their first round pick?

2. Do you believe that, of all the franchise-type players who received a first-round tender, Malcolm Butler would be the one who breaks this tradition (of no one even considering giving up their first round pick) because he is that good?

I think it's crazy to believe the Patriots are going to get the Saints #11 overall pick. In addition to the fact that teams never give up their first round picks to sign an RFA, (a) this is a very strong draft, and (b) the Saints pick is #11; it's not like they are picking late in the first round. Any reports that the Patriots are expecting the #11 overall pick can be explained by their justified paranoia that they will be accused and punished for talking about an unsigned player. To cover for this, they are going by the book, which is that since they haven't talked to the Saints, they would follow NFL protocol which is that the Saints would give up their own first round pick. That hardly means they actually mean that or expect to get it. If they said anything otherwise, it looks fishy, like a deal was already worked out.

Teams treat their first round picks like a pot of gold. That being said, it is possible the Saints are willing to trade #31 back to the Patriots, as that move would make more sense.

Chandler Jones got us a second round pick last year...he is considered an elite pass rusher and would have at least as high a market value as Butler, probably even higher. Although Arizona did not have a long-term deal in place with him which may have increased the trade risk, they seemed quite sure they would sign him to a long-term deal and break the bank.

Regarding your first point, I can see a small chance of this happening if a conference rival determines it would be worth giving up their late first round selection in order to simultaneously weaken the Pats and strenghthen their team enough to 'tip the balance' for this year. However, the addition of Gilmore has made this even less likely.

 

[varjao]

I laughed my ass off at the possibility of the Saints being in "win now" mode (Kirwan opinion). Talk about wishful thinking.

Now, back to the negotiations, I believe (and many here have said the same) the trade was Cooks for Butler and some change (our 3rd for their 4th), but since it couldn't be done at the time, BB was OK with the trade for Cooks the way it is right now. The second part of this deal was and is still incomplete at this time but BB was satisfied with the terms if this ends without progress. BB is never going to work on the assumption that something will happen, THAT would be irresponsibility.

There are many moving pieces going on, other team could be interested in throwing a first for Butler as well and we could get more value than our #32 back, the Saints could not get into terms with Butler, Butler and his agent might pull some crap and hold out, whatever...Cooks for #32 and the swap of our 3rd rounder for their 4th was kind of expensive but BB was OK with this value. Now, ideally, they will complete the original idea of this deal but if that doesn't happen then OK then.

Now, my opinion, the more time this goes on, the worse it gets for everyone, especially the Patriots and Butler. The Saints might realize Butler is not going to win them games and might even not be a good fit, so the value of #32 might be better for a team that is desperately in need of a rebuild and cap relief. 2 first round picks in a deep draft? Not bad. If they are smart they trade down that #11 and get quality players in day 1 and 2. That defense is so bad it's hard to imagine a turn around in one year, but it could improve dramatically.

For the Patriots it's not ideal too because they might not get their #32 back and will have Butler playing for 4 Mi with god knows what kind of mood and motivation. Not to talk about the guy becoming a problem.

And for Butler, signing an extension right now even if leaving some money on the table is the best decision. His value is not going to increase a lot more even if he plays a decent season, the market is not sold on him and his value could very well go down to middle of the pack of 2nd tier CB's if he is to have a down year. I'm not even going to talk about the risk of blowing an ACL or Achilles. He will have to play lights out to get a big payday next year, so get the money now, get some security and hits the free agency again even at a 30/31 year old. He is not going to win this arm wrestling against BB.

 

[JMC00]

Slow news week.Trying to have fun with a possible connect the dots.

2015 NFL Draft Profile: Stephone Anthony

Anyone know anything on this player? 2015 1st round pick but hasn't done a whole lot. Saints gave A.J. Klein good money & just signed Te'o. Maybe he could be involved in a potential trade.

They like Anthony. He had a good rookie year at MLB. But they moved him to SLB last year which he had never played before and also got injured in the preseason=

Them getting LBs has do with them not having any LBs other than Anthony and Elerbee

 

[XLIX]

I laughed my ass off at the possibility of the Saints being in "win now" mode (Kirwan opinion). Talk about wishful thinking.

I'm not so sure it is all that far-fetched. The Panthers went from 7-8-1 in 2014 to the Super Bowl in 2015. The Falcons went from 8-8 in 2015 to the Super Bowl in 2016. Not so ridiculous to think an NFC team with a fantastic offense and top-flight QB could go from 7-9 to being a serious contender with some improvement on defense, especially since 7 of those losses were by a TD or less.

 

[Tony2046]

Questions for everyone who thinks the Patriots are going to dig their heels in for the #11 pick in the draft:

1. How many players have been given a first-round tender in the last 8-10 years and signed on with another team, with their new team willing to give up their first round pick?

2. Do you believe that, of all the franchise-type players who received a first-round tender, Malcolm Butler would be the one who breaks this tradition (of no one even considering giving up their first round pick) because he is that good?

I think it's crazy to believe the Patriots are going to get the Saints #11 overall pick. In addition to the fact that teams never give up their first round picks to sign an RFA, (a) this is a very strong draft, and (b) the Saints pick is #11; it's not like they are picking late in the first round. Any reports that the Patriots are expecting the #11 overall pick can be explained by their justified paranoia that they will be accused and punished for talking about an unsigned player. To cover for this, they are going by the book, which is that since they haven't talked to the Saints, they would follow NFL protocol which is that the Saints would give up their own first round pick. That hardly means they actually mean that or expect to get it. If they said anything otherwise, it looks fishy, like a deal was already worked out.

Teams treat their first round picks like a pot of gold. That being said, it is possible the Saints are willing to trade #31 back to the Patriots, as that move would make more sense.

Chandler Jones got us a second round pick last year...he is considered an elite pass rusher and would have at least as high a market value as Butler, probably even higher. Although Arizona did not have a long-term deal in place with him which may have increased the trade risk, they seemed quite sure they would sign him to a long-term deal and break the bank.

I have no clue what BB is going to do.

1. The Wilfork trade broke my heart.
2. The Collins trade caught me off guard.
3. The Gilmore signing blew my mind until I realized that it might mean Butler is gone.
4. The Cooks trade felt like christmas.

If I were to guess I would say that we won't get the Saints #11 but I do think we'll get something in comparable trade value spread across a few years. The #32 back this year and a couple of later picks split across this year and the next.

My hope is that the Saints deal falls through and Butler plays for at least one more year.

 

[luuked]

What's "coming his way"? 5/$50M in NO?

The reality that he won't be paid the same way as a UFA. It's insane for him to ask for market price when a team can keep him easily at effectively 8-9m APY via RFA tender + franchise tag.

 

[XLIX]

The reality that he won't be paid the same way as a UFA. It's insane for him to ask for market price when a team can keep him easily at effectively 8-9m APY via RFA tender + franchise tag.

Where are you reading that he is asking for market (i.e. Gilmore type) price?

Seriously, I'd like to see these articles that everyone is talking about here so I can get the full context.

 

[luuked]

Where are you reading that he is asking for market (i.e. Gilmore type) price?

Seriously, I'd like to see these articles that everyone is talking about here so I can get the full context.

I am not following this entire circus anymore which is why I prefaced the reply you quoted originally with: "If he really is that naive..."

 

[patfanken]

A few comments on the more recent pages:

1. I think we can all agree that the #11 pick is NOT going to happen. Butler hardly makes sense for the 32nd pick plus his contract, let alone #11.

2. I think the BB/Payton "friendship" angle has been overblown. They have never coached together on any staff. He respects him, but that only goes as far as a professional level. He is NOT doing any favors for him, nor is he getting any.

3. All of the various scenarios that have been offered over the last 877 post are ALL speculation. All the "inside" information these reporters are getting is ALL speculation. I can't imagine any one in the Pats organization telling Giardi what's happening in any POSSIBLE negotiations with NO. Does that really sound like something that would happen.....to GIARDI?? but not Reiss or Curran?? When has ANY trade the Pats made become news before it happens.

No this is all coming from the agent, who has a vested position in getting this deal done. No this is a narrative that has been media driven and sold to us as fact, with all of us trying to connect the dots that gets us from speculation to reality.

4. The longer it goes on the less I think a trade will happen. I don't know about you but if I were a Saints fan, I think I could do better keeping the #11 and #32, PLUS finally start to get my cap under a semblence of control, rather than take Butler AND another big contract. (after a week to digest it, what are Saints fans thinking about the propect of adding Butler @pherein?)

5. On the other side, getting the #32 back might be better for the Pats in the long term, but for THIS year, having Butler back makes THIS team better and THIS secondary great.

 

[Ring 6]

How do you get out of that that Belichick is doing anyone a solid??

It asserts that:

• BB and Payton agreed to do Butler + 3rd for Cooks + 4th.
• Butler part fell through at the time, so it was done with the NE #32 as a placeholder for Butler
• NE would prefer to have the #32 and NO would prefer to have Butler
• Thus if they can, the teams will trade Butler for the #32 to finish the trade.

The only thing it asserts is that BB wants to finish off the trade he agreed to. Now, you can argue with the wisdom of Butler + 3rd for Cooks + 4th, but if they agreed to it, why shouldn't BB finish off the trade? He was fine with it then, why wouldn't he be fine with it now? Presumably he agreed to the trade because, among other things, he knew NO wouldn't give up the #11 and so offer sheets were irrelevant. NE putting the #11 as a sticker price on Butler in an NO trade is no different than a car dealer putting a sticker price on some car you want. That's nice and all, but the entity slapping on the sticker price isn't entitled to the sticker price and if no one wants to pay it and the entity still wants the transaction to happen, he'll have to come down off the sticker.

All the "BB would be screwing NE and doing a favor to Payton by taking the #32 because NE would get the #11 if NO signed Butler to an offer sheet" people seem to have some magic belief that NO would actually give Butler that offer sheet. If neither Payton nor BB think Butler is worth the #11 pick why would you think the #11 pick has any relevance whatsoever? If BB thought Butler was worth the #11 he never would have allegedly agreed to the Butler + 3rd for Cooks + 4th trade in the first place.

So it is your believe that belichick cheated by discussing trading a player who isn't under contract.