Butler & Saints working towards finalizing a deal (Thread now UFC Pats Fans Event)

[fnordcircle]

Hey guys what's going on

 

[Ring 6]

I want to see the rule. Because no, it doesn't make any sense.

Teams discuss trading players before they're drafted all the time, yet those teams have no rights to those players yet.

Well go find it. I trust that BB and Lombardi know the rule.
NFL teams didn't trade players after they draft them. It literally never happens that NFL teams propose trading players they are about to draft.

 

[XLIX]

They can't.
Rules are rules. If you honestly think bill belichick would risk the consequences of violating a rule at this stage of the fund moron doesn't even begin to describe you.

You've already proven in this very thread that you don't have the first clue how RFA works. No seriously, tell us all again how Butler can sign the tender and still talk to any other team he wants.

If you think there weren't any unofficial nudge-nudge-wink-wink discussions, and his name NEVER came up at all, well then that's just another part of the process where you are completely clueless (which is actually something we are used to with you).

 

[Plunkett2Vataha]

They like Anthony. He had a good rookie year at MLB. But they moved him to SLB last year which he had never played before and also got injured in the preseason=

Them getting LBs has do with them not having any LBs other than Anthony and Elerbee

I've watched every one of Anthony's games his first two years. I live just outside of New Orleans and the Saints are the only other team I root for, but they are a distant second to the Patriots. When the Saints are on at the same time as the Patriots, I've DVR'ed the Saints game to watch later. Anthony has been terrible, both his rookie year and this past season. It doesn't matter that he changed linebacker positions. He doesn't recognize plays fast enough to be a difference maker, and it's only his athleticism that gets him his tackles. I'm not even sure Belichick and Patricia could improve his cognitive skills in recognizing what's developing in front of him.

Note: I'm not an Anthony hater. I really wish the light bulb would go off and he plays up to his athleticism.

 

[Ring 6]

What exactly is beneficial to Butler in not signing the tender at this point? Couldn't he still be free to negotiate with other teams, provided that the Patriots allow it? He is going to have to sign it eventually...right?

If he signs the tender essentially he accepts that offer and relinquishes his free agency.

 

[Ring 6]

You've already proven in this very thread that you don't have the first clue how RFA works. No seriously, tell us all again how Butler can sign the tender and still talk to any other team he wants.

No I have proven that I was wrong about one detail and man enough to admit it. You have proven you are wrong and not man enough to admit it.

If you think there weren't any unofficial nudge-nudge-wink-wink discussions, and his name NEVER came up at all, well then that's just another part of the process where you are completely clueless (which is actually something we are used to with you).

There is a rule in place that you cannot do that. Which is something you were proven wrong about.
You are certain belichick cheated. I am certain he didn't.

 

[ivanvamp]

Well go find it. I trust that BB and Lombardi know the rule.
NFL teams didn't trade players after they draft them. It literally never happens that NFL teams propose trading players they are about to draft.

I can't find the rule, that's the point.

Teams can openly talk about free agents. It's the nature of free agency.

How can it be against the rules for BB to call up Payton and ask, "Hey Sean, are you guys making LB Smith an offer?" If that's not against the rules, how can it be against the rules to then say, "If you are, call me up, because I know you need a tight end, and if you sign Smith, and if the salaries match up with ours, I might be willing to trade you our TE Jones for Smith. Let me know."

How can that be illegal?

If it is, I'd like to see the rule. I can't find it.

 

[Plunkett2Vataha]

A few comments on the more recent pages:

1. I think we can all agree that the #11 pick is NOT going to happen. Butler hardly makes sense for the 32nd pick plus his contract, let alone #11.

2. I think the BB/Payton "friendship" angle has been overblown. They have never coached together on any staff. He respects him, but that only goes as far as a professional level. He is NOT doing any favors for him, nor is he getting any.

3. All of the various scenarios that have been offered over the last 877 post are ALL speculation. All the "inside" information these reporters are getting is ALL speculation. I can't imagine any one in the Pats organization telling Giardi what's happening in any POSSIBLE negotiations with NO. Does that really sound like something that would happen.....to GIARDI?? but not Reiss or Curran?? When has ANY trade the Pats made become news before it happens.

No this is all coming from the agent, who has a vested position in getting this deal done. No this is a narrative that has been media driven and sold to us as fact, with all of us trying to connect the dots that gets us from speculation to reality.

4. The longer it goes on the less I think a trade will happen. I don't know about you but if I were a Saints fan, I think I could do better keeping the #11 and #32, PLUS finally start to get my cap under a semblence of control, rather than take Butler AND another big contract. (after a week to digest it, what are Saints fans thinking about the propect of adding Butler @pherein?)

5. On the other side, getting the #32 back might be better for the Pats in the long term, but for THIS year, having Butler back makes THIS team better and THIS secondary great.

PFK, the Saints fans I talk to would love to get Butler. But most of them want the Saints management team to hold the line at a second and a third, and not the #32. And the #11 is the end of any and all conversations. Now Pherein may get a different take on this, but this is what I get from people I work with and people I see in shops, restaurants, etc...It's fun what a conversation starter my Patriots hat is when I go into these places. I've had some of the best conversations with die-hard Saints fans...

 

[XLIX]

No I have proven that I was wrong about one detail and man enough to admit it.

LOL!! You weren't "man enough" to admit when pretty much the entire board told you how wrong you were. It was only after finally bringing in Miguel where you sheepishly realized how overmatched you were.

No but seriously... tell us all again how Butler's name didn't come up in any way, shape or form whatsoever when Belichick and Payton were engaging in their good faith discussions.

 

[Nunchucks]

Patriots cannot talk about trading a player that is not under contract. Simple.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Sterling Moore being their CB1 = no wonder they're looking for a CB1.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I am of the belief that I hope the Saints and Butler reach an agreement.

From most accounts, the Patriots wish to trade him. With any other franchise, I would be divided and wondering if it were the right move, but how can anyone even fathom questioning Belichick? So, I am going with that. I think Belichick wants Butler to work out a deal with the Saints and then trade him...for whatever reason, Belichick values the return compensation from Butler over keeping Butler. I think that it's reasonable to speculate, if not assume, based on all the reports. In addition, it looks like Butler wants out. It was great while it lasted, but for whatever reason it seems both sides want to move on, and I imagine that having a player who doesn't want to be there, and who the team doesn't see any future with, is not going to be the best scenario.

Beyond that we don't know why it soured. It might be that the Patriots thought the market would be higher for Gilmore, that Butler was asking for too much, and proababy some combination of those two things. For whatever reason, BB is confident this team will be better off with Gilmore, and it appears better off without Butler and instead more draft picks. If that's what BB wants, then that's what you should want to, if you want to continue seeing this franchise dominate the league.

 

[Ring 6]

I can't find the rule, that's the point.

Teams can openly talk about free agents. It's the nature of free agency.

Sure. But whatvthey cant do is talk about trading a guy who is a great agent that they have no rights to. How could they?

How can it be against the rules for BB to call up Payton and ask, "Hey Sean, are you guys making LB Smith an offer?" If that's not against the rules, how can it be against the rules to then say, "If you are, call me up, because I know you need a tight end, and if you sign Smith, and if the salaries match up with ours, I might be willing to trade you our TE Jones for Smith. Let me know."

How can that be illegal?

If it is, I'd like to see the rule. I can't find it.

Well a rule is a rule whether it makes sense to you or not.
The issue though is that you can't discuss trading a player you do not own rights to. How could you.
For example bill belichick cannot call the saints and offer to trade them matt forte for pick #32.
He has no rights to mart forte.
Nor could he trade legarette Blount for pick 32 because he is not under current tract.
He equal as if right now has no rights to Malcolm butler.
He has the chance to have butlers rights if he agrees to the contract that has been offered if it is ever accepted. He also has the right to match an offer he signs, which he hasn t signed. He doesn't have the right to trade him. Evatse he doesn't possses his contractual obligation.

It seems wise for a league to have a rule that you can't offer to trade something you do not have. Imagine the corruption that could happen if you allowed it.

 

[Sam Bam Cunningham]

PFK, the Saints fans I talk to would love to get Butler. But most of them want the Saints management team to hold the line at a second and a third, and not the #32. And the #11 is the end of any and all conversations. Now Pherein may get a different take on this, but this is what I get from people I work with and people I see in shops, restaurants, etc...It's fun what a conversation starter my Patriots hat is when I go into these places. I've had some of the best conversations with die-hard Saints fans...

This just simply shows how fans on both sides have ridiculous expectations. Why in gods name should Patriots trade a 2nd and a 3rd for Butler when they tendered him at first round level
that is almost as ridiculous as thinking Saints should give up #11 for MB

 

[Ring 6]

LOL!! You weren't "man enough" to admit when pretty much the entire board told you how wrong you were. It was only after finally bringing in Miguel where you sheepishly realized how overmatched you were.

100% WRONG.
In my second post about the topic i said I may be wrong about this. The next time I discussedit I said I was wrong.
Nice try.

No but seriously... tell us all again how Butler's name didn't come up in any way, shape or form whatsoever when Belichick and Payton were engaging in their good faith discussions.

Because it's the rule. It had also been widely reported as the facts.

 

[Ring 6]

This just simply shows how fans on both sides have ridiculous expectations. Why in gods name should Patriots trade a 2nd and a 3rd for Butler when they tendered him at first round level
that is almost as ridiculous as thinking Saints should give up #11 for MB

But what they tendered is moot if no one wants to pay it.
They could have tendered bolden with a first round tender if they wanted. That doesn't mean they wouldn't take a 7th.

His value is what someone is willing to pay.
By your logic his value is the #1 pick in the draft if clevejsnd wants to trade for him but only 31 if Atlanta does.

 

[Ring 6]

I am of the belief that I hope the Saints and Butler reach an agreement.

From most accounts, the Patriots wish to trade him. With any other franchise, I would be divided and wondering if it were the right move, but how can anyone even fathom questioning Belichick? So, I am going with that. I think Belichick wants Butler to work out a deal with the Saints and then trade him...for whatever reason, Belichick values the return compensation from Butler over keeping Butler. I think that it's reasonable to speculate, if not assume, based on all the reports. In addition, it looks like Butler wants out. It was great while it lasted, but for whatever reason it seems both sides want to move on, and I imagine that having a player who doesn't want to be there, and who the team doesn't see any future with, is not going to be the best scenario.

Beyond that we don't know why it soured. It might be that the Patriots thought the market would be higher for Gilmore, that Butler was asking for too much, and proababy some combination of those two things. For whatever reason, BB is confident this team will be better off with Gilmore, and it appears better off without Butler and instead more draft picks. If that's what BB wants, then that's what you should want to, if you want to continue seeing this franchise dominate the league.

We actually don't know that belichick wants to trade him.
All we know is they couldn't agree on an extension. And BB theoretically replaced him.
The idea that BB wouldn't match an offer or keep him as an RFA if he can't get the 11 is all rumor concocted by circumstantial guessing.


A) butler is rfa
B) pays sign top ufa at same position
C) pats make a trade with NO who needs defense

All of a sudden speculation runs rampant that BB doesn't want butler.

There is every reason to believe BB would rather have butler at 3.9 mill and go from there as that we wants him gone.
There is also every reason to believe that there is a package of comp that would change that decision.

People who conclude BB wants butler gone are guessing.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

I want to see the rule. Because no, it doesn't make any sense.

It's based upon Bill's interpretation of Article XIV of the Collective Bargaining Agreement. Specifically, Article XIV, Section 8(b) states that

“[a] Club extending a Required Tender must, for so long as that Tender is extended, have a good faith intention to employ the player receiving the Tender at the Tender compensation level during the upcoming season.”

In other words, a team can’t apply the franchise tender to a player solely as a vehicle for trading the player. Thus, evidence that the team is trying to trade the player could provide the foundation for an argument that the team doesn’t have a good-faith intention to employ the player receiving the Tender.

Once the tender is signed (and thus no longer “extended”), the “good faith intention” requirement evaporates, and the player can be traded.

BELICHICK: PATS HAVEN'T TALKED TO PANTHERS ABOUT PEPPERS

--
FWIW, Florio and others think that such a narrow interpretation is silly, though I wouldn't put it past the NFL to interpret any action by the Patriots in the worst possible light and interpreting rules in a way most unfavorable to the Patriots.

The first opponent, though, is probably not the NFL but the NFLPA. Teams may fear a challenge from the NFLPA, if trade talks occur before the franchise tender is signed.

 

[RIpats88]

It is possible you know that the pats have no intention of trading butler unless its for the 11th pick...that could be the message they are sending. They want 11th pick, butler at 3.9 or butler at a reasonable deal.

If BB values 1 year of butler at 3.9 million more than #32 why would he trade butler to the saints? It only benefits butler.

Why would BB when he can just keep butler. As I said he doesnt HAVE to trade butler at all. People are acting as if BB is in a vice and has to trade butler.

When really he can just do nothing and keep Butler...and get a 3rd rounder next year if he bolts or franchise him and get him for 2 years of what he wouldve offered

 

[chris_in_sunnyvale]

My 2 cents:

Pats are going to play this per RFA rules: Either match an offer sheet or take the first rounder if they don't match.

The whole "trade Malcom" in order to avoid a malcontent and/or guarantee something beyond a 3rd round comp pick should he leave as a UFA seems like too much risk mitigation on BB's part if you ask me. BB will gladly use the time bought by Malcom playing on the RFA tender to try and sign him long term. BB didn't cave on Mankins and I doubt he will on Malcom.

Regards,
Chris