Big Ted still missed

[Mike the Brit]

I'm pretty sure Hill had a job as a grave digger in his hometown. Ain't going to look it up, though.

Hill was a project and he has great measurables, but as Vermeil said, it's time to take off the diapers.

I'm not down on him, there's just so much time before any confidence goes.

I guess I'm continuing a point from another forum I post at, but I hate people slamming players who have been injured or haven't become all pros after 2-3 years.

Bethel is always a whipping boy and he hasn't been a total success, but despite injuries has played ST on both sides and been a decent backup speed receiver at times. He could very well go, but at least he's filled a role.

Hill and Klecko, unfortunately, are just taking up space.

I like Klecko and I know the coaches do, but the more roles they use him at, the less effective he is.

If you can't finf a role, you have to create one because the Pats have extra picks and they need to strengthen some positions. That means extras spots for guys competing for jobs.

Like they say in the NFL films, it means Not For Long:bricks:

And I'm pretty sure you're right about Hill.

But, look -- I've been a Klecko believer like f2p. We can accept reality as much as the next football fan (admittedly, not very much -- Wishful Thinking is our middle names) but I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't take our humble faith and stomp on it.

 

[RayClay]

And I'm pretty sure you're right about Hill.

But, look -- I've been a Klecko believer like f2p. We can accept reality as much as the next football fan (admittedly, not very much -- Wishful Thinking is our middle names) but I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't take our humble faith and stomp on it.

I like Klecko myself. But how can you justify a roster spot for him?

We have lots of needs and that means competition for roster spots.

And I didn't invent the reality, I just catalogued it.

 

[RayClay]

In case you missed it, Johnson and Phyfer weren't on the team last year. Klecko was IR'ed for most of their last year, missing the chance to understudy behind TJ.

While Vrabel filled TJ's role better than anyone else we tried last year and covers better than TJ did, he played more of a Phyfer,3rd down role than a pure run-stuffing role (which was the original point of this thread). He commented at one point that if he hadn't got extended, he would have had a problem with assuming the job. Finally, using Vrabel at ILB is underutilizing him. He will be Willie's replacement, regardless of who is drafted or picked up on waivers.

This thread wasn't started to lament the fact that Klecko can't find a role on this team. It was to point out that we don't have an ILB who busts OG's helmets and blows up FB's a yd behind the LOS. We may not find one. But we need to find one who "gets it" on 1st and 2nd down. Having to stunt to stop the run isn't a long-term solution.

Vrabel took Phifer's role.

Bruschi has taken Johnson's role much as he did when Phifer was here. TJ was simply a one dimensional role player.

Although not as stout, Bruschi plays the position much better than Johnson.

In addition to stuffing the run he can cover, pass rush and is over all a much better strong side LB than Johnson.

I think the 4 LBs playing now are as effective as any group they've had.

I was all for a big run stuffer when it looked like Bruschi had retired.

With Bruschi back, I don't see that need.

This group stops the run as well as anyone.

The days of a **** Butkus are over. LBs need to be more mobile and versatile.

 

[RayClay]

Just a snippet. I'm all for a good run stuffer. But you have to do more these days. *Tom casale for PFW via Patriots.com*

"In their last three wins over the Jets, Bills and Buccaneers, the Patriots have allowed their opposition a total of 85 yards on 46 carries. That comes out to an average of 1.8 yards per carry. After their loss to the Chiefs, the Patriots have been much more aggressive on defense and no one can argue with the results so far.

“We continue to take steps in the right direction,†Rosevelt Colvin said. “We have a lot more confidence right now and when you have more confidence, it’s easier to be more aggressive and get your job done. Guys have taken it upon themselves to improve individually so we could improve as a team.â€

A big reason for the resurgence of the rush defense is the improvement of two players: Vince Wilfork and Tedy Bruschi."

 

[Mike the Brit]

I like Klecko myself. But how can you justify a roster spot for him?

We have lots of needs and that means competition for roster spots.

And I didn't invent the reality, I just catalogued it.

No, I'm not trying to justify a roster spot -- I can see the reality myself.

To go back to the start of the thread: I agree, we do miss Big Ted. I mean, how do you figure this: Pats let Traylor go, replace him with Kelley. 'Fins sign Traylor, let JAG go (Mario Monds?). Pats let Kelley go, sign Monds. Pats let Monds go.

I love BB/Pioli but there is no way I can make that the work of a personnel genius.

 

[DaBruinz]

Well, by the same logic I might be the next ILB. They haven't given me a chance.

Klecko was told to lose weight and worked some at linebacker last year, (camp and practice). The Pats thought so much of his prospects, they told him to forget the weight loss and go back to working out at nose tackle.

Seems to me you have your years confused. Klecko was told to lose weight prior to his 2nd year. Which was the 2004 season. That is when they tried him in camp at LB and also used him at FB, where he got injured, tearing his ACL. It was during the off-season that they told him to get heavier again. After they let Traylor go.

Had Klecko showed promise at linebacker, they would have kept Traylor who was a decent and affordable backup.

If the Pats had felt that Traylor was a decent and affordable back-up, they would have kept him over Klecko and Wright, thereby freeing up a roster slot for another player. Guess that wasn't the case, huh?

They like Klecko so they tried to find a spot back at his original position.

He is immediately beaten out by a undrafted free agent, (Wright), they've got another candidate on the PS, (Santonio Thomas) and their talking about drafting another candidate.

Klecko didn't immediately get beaten out by anyone. But why would I expect you to have your facts correct now. You've been wrong so far. Wright was listed as the #3 NT coming out of camp. Yes, Wright moved past Klecko, but we also don't know when that happened.

Ashton and Hochstein have taken over as goal line blockers.

What's stopping the Pats from trying him at LB, (again)?

Lack of talent?

Who is Ashton? Do you mean ASHWORTH? Also, since you missed it. The Patriots lost Klecko once to the fact that he was lined up as a FB. And they also lost Seymour. It doesn't make sense to continue to risk injury to them playing them out of position. Hochstein was the starting center to end the season. So, of course he had taken over as a goal-line blocker. Ashworth was a former TE who knows how to block on the offensive side of the ball. And he's used to getting down low to go against defensive linemen.

The issue with Klecko is as much the fault of the Patriots Coaching staff as it is Klecko. I'm sorry that you can't understand that, RayClay. See, being asked to lose 20 lbs and then being asked to put it back on while your rehabbing from injury is a tough thing to do. And I find it amazing at how many people refuse to take into consideration Klecko recovering from an ACL this season. Everyone talks about how it takes RBs 2 years to get fully healthy and back into form, yet, no one is willing to give that same for Klecko. Talk about double standards.

Now, before you go answering again, RayClay, please consider that all I am doing is pointing out facts that should be considered. Also, the Patriots under BB have shown a propensity to not do what the fans expect. Could Klecko be cut this off-season? Yep. But I believ it won't happen until training camp. Also, we could see Klecko pushing Larry Izzo for a special teams slot. Especially since Izzo didn't have a great season last year. Neither did Matt Chatham and I have a feeling that is why Chatham hasn't been re-signed yet.

 

[DaBruinz]

And I'm pretty sure you're right about Hill.

But, look -- I've been a Klecko believer like f2p. We can accept reality as much as the next football fan (admittedly, not very much -- Wishful Thinking is our middle names) but I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't take our humble faith and stomp on it.

Hill will be turning 24 this year. He is the youngest player on the Pats D-line. He was a project when he was drafted and he did, finally, start seeing regular time on the Goal-line defense. I honestly believe we'll start seeing him in a regular rotation on the field with Green.

 

[AzPatsFan]

[. Could Klecko be cut this off-season? Yep. But I believ it won't happen until training camp. Also, we could see Klecko pushing Larry Izzo for a special teams slot. Especially since Izzo didn't have a great season last year. Neither did Matt Chatham and I have a feeling that is why Chatham hasn't been re-signed yet.[/QUOTE]


You are correct in that Izzo did not have a great year this past season as a STer. Stone, and Davis outplayed him as did Chatham and even TBC too. I think he is fading and Stone ALREADY has his job.

As for Chatham, he is someone you don't want starting for you, but he demonstrated the ability to play OLB for a several games a few years back when Vrabel was hurt. Do you remember his game turning INT return for a TD against the Giants? He also recorded 16 tackles playing as the ILB when the Pats played the entire season-ending Miami game with second stringers, to rest the first team and not get them hurt for the playoffs. Not bad at all.

If you recall that game went down to an incompletion on a two point conversion as time expired. The second stringers more than held their own against a rising Miami club with 15 games under their belts in the Saban system. The Defense's stats were solid too...

Chatham is solid depth and a good STer to boot; he'll be signed, unless someone else pays him more...

 

[RayClay]

Seems to me you have your years confused. Klecko was told to lose weight prior to his 2nd year. Which was the 2004 season. That is when they tried him in camp at LB and also used him at FB, where he got injured, tearing his ACL. It was during the off-season that they told him to get heavier again. After they let Traylor go.



If the Pats had felt that Traylor was a decent and affordable back-up, they would have kept him over Klecko and Wright, thereby freeing up a roster slot for another player. Guess that wasn't the case, huh?



Klecko didn't immediately get beaten out by anyone. But why would I expect you to have your facts correct now. You've been wrong so far. Wright was listed as the #3 NT coming out of camp. Yes, Wright moved past Klecko, but we also don't know when that happened.



Who is Ashton? Do you mean ASHWORTH? Also, since you missed it. The Patriots lost Klecko once to the fact that he was lined up as a FB. And they also lost Seymour. It doesn't make sense to continue to risk injury to them playing them out of position. Hochstein was the starting center to end the season. So, of course he had taken over as a goal-line blocker. Ashworth was a former TE who knows how to block on the offensive side of the ball. And he's used to getting down low to go against defensive linemen.

The issue with Klecko is as much the fault of the Patriots Coaching staff as it is Klecko. I'm sorry that you can't understand that, RayClay. See, being asked to lose 20 lbs and then being asked to put it back on while your rehabbing from injury is a tough thing to do. And I find it amazing at how many people refuse to take into consideration Klecko recovering from an ACL this season. Everyone talks about how it takes RBs 2 years to get fully healthy and back into form, yet, no one is willing to give that same for Klecko. Talk about double standards.

Now, before you go answering again, RayClay, please consider that all I am doing is pointing out facts that should be considered. Also, the Patriots under BB have shown a propensity to not do what the fans expect. Could Klecko be cut this off-season? Yep. But I believ it won't happen until training camp. Also, we could see Klecko pushing Larry Izzo for a special teams slot. Especially since Izzo didn't have a great season last year. Neither did Matt Chatham and I have a feeling that is why Chatham hasn't been re-signed yet.

What position would Klecko be playing out of?

I'd go over this point by point, but there's no reason.

You can quibble about when Wright passed Klecko or whether Traylor was a better nose tackle than Klecko, but you haven't made the case for keeping him on the roster.

Yes, it was stupid to use Seymour to block because of his value to the team.

How you can compare Klecko's value to Seymour's is mind boggling. Both Hochstein and Ashworth have made valuable starts for the team.

I can't think of a player who has less to lose by playing fullback than Klecko.

 

[DaBruinz]

What position would Klecko be playing out of?

I'd go over this point by point, but there's no reason.

You can quibble about when Wright passed Klecko or whether Traylor was a better nose tackle than Klecko, but you haven't made the case for keeping him on the roster.

Yes, it was stupid to use Seymour to block because of his value to the team.

How you can compare Klecko's value to Seymour's is mind boggling. Both Hochstein and Ashworth have made valuable starts for the team.

I can't think of a player who has less to lose by playing fullback than Klecko.

Actually, RayClay, there is every reason for you to go point by point since you are the one who brought up many of the "points" that are being put into perspective.

1) Klecko was a D-linemen all through college. That is why playing him on the offense would be considered playing him out of position.

2) Hmm, it would seem that the person who is quibbling here is you, RayClay, since it was you who was the one who brought up Wright and Traylor to begin with. As for when Wright passed Klecko, I would say it was probably around week 9. Just by the fact that Klecko was not dressed. And I don't see how you can sweep away the point that if Traylor was a viable option at NT, why would the Pats cut him in favor of Klecko and Wright?

3) The problem here seems to be a lack of understanding. No one was comparing Klecko to Seymour. Seems that was a assumption on your part. All I was doing was pointing out FACT. A fact that the Patriots have used 2 different defensive linemen on offense and both of the have sustained knee injuries. Klecko tore his ACL and Seymour sprained his MCL twice.

4) Yes, Ashworth and Hochstein have made valuable starts on the O-line. No one said otherwise. You were the one who claimed that they had supplanted Klecko as the goal-line blocking presence. What I pointed out to you was that Hochstein was on the goal-line team because he was the center and that Ashworth was there because his entire playing experience has been on the offensive side of the ball and he'd been on the goal-line team previously as well.

 

[RayClay]

Actually, RayClay, there is every reason for you to go point by point since you are the one who brought up many of the "points" that are being put into perspective.

1) Klecko was a D-linemen all through college. That is why playing him on the offense would be considered playing him out of position.

2) Hmm, it would seem that the person who is quibbling here is you, RayClay, since it was you who was the one who brought up Wright and Traylor to begin with. As for when Wright passed Klecko, I would say it was probably around week 9. Just by the fact that Klecko was not dressed. And I don't see how you can sweep away the point that if Traylor was a viable option at NT, why would the Pats cut him in favor of Klecko and Wright?

3) The problem here seems to be a lack of understanding. No one was comparing Klecko to Seymour. Seems that was a assumption on your part. All I was doing was pointing out FACT. A fact that the Patriots have used 2 different defensive linemen on offense and both of the have sustained knee injuries. Klecko tore his ACL and Seymour sprained his MCL twice.

4) Yes, Ashworth and Hochstein have made valuable starts on the O-line. No one said otherwise. You were the one who claimed that they had supplanted Klecko as the goal-line blocking presence. What I pointed out to you was that Hochstein was on the goal-line team because he was the center and that Ashworth was there because his entire playing experience has been on the offensive side of the ball and he'd been on the goal-line team previously as well.

You should be a lawyer.

You make your points very well.

However, nothing that you have said matters.

The only thing that matters is the Pats have lots of holes to fill and extra draft picks and possible free agents to fill them.

Roster spots are valuable.

Why should Klecko hold one rather than rookie or F.A. running backs, Line backers defensive backs and, indeed, nose tackles.

This is the one question you consistently avoid.

 

[jczxohn1]

Kai Parham

http://virginiasports.collegesports...rham_kai00.html

Here's a guy we should be looking at for a 3rd round pick. Combine times a little slow, but some say he plays faster. True ILB, hard hitter, "quiet,--belies his nature on the field". 6'3"-253 lb; makes him the biggest LB at the combine. Anybody know anything else?

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/playerDetail.jsp?yr=2005&org=746&player=44

Here's his 2005 game stats.

 

[jczxohn1]

Vrabel took Phifer's role.
Phyfer was an OLB who played inside his last yr on 3rd down
Bruschi has taken Johnson's role much as he did when Phifer was here. TJ was simply a one dimensional role player.
And it's the dimension we're missing. You're making my point!
Although not as stout, Bruschi plays the position much better than Johnson.
And, by extension, I assume you mean Vrabel plays Bruschi's position better than Bruschi did.
In addition to stuffing the run he can cover, pass rush and is over all a much better strong side LB than Johnson.
And leap tall buildings in a single bound.
I think the 4 LBs playing now are as effective as any group they've had.
Considering they didn't have Rodney in the box, I'll have to give you this one.
I was all for a big run stuffer when it looked like Bruschi had retired.
Do you watch the games or do you just read the box scores? TJ and Tedy were like Mutt and Jeff. Tedy would never have been able to do what he did without TJ doing his thing.
With Bruschi back, I don't see that need.
I love Tedy like I love the baby Jesus, but he won't hold up in the role you want him to.
This group stops the run as well as anyone.
For 6 games after BB coached them up for 10 wks.
The days of a **** Butkus are over. LBs need to be more mobile and versatile.

I wanted Lofa Tatupu, too, but as a SS. In the 3-4, every down lineman can be double-teamed on every play. You must have an ILB who can take on OG's and FB's to stop the run on 1st and 2nd down or you are consistently asking someone else to play out of position and will pay for it.

Incidently, **** Butkus in his prime would start for any team in the league today with the possible exception of Chicago.

 

[RayClay]

I wanted Lofa Tatupu, too, but as a SS. In the 3-4, every down lineman can be double-teamed on every play. You must have an ILB who can take on OG's and FB's to stop the run on 1st and 2nd down or you are consistently asking someone else to play out of position and will pay for it.

Incidently, **** Butkus in his prime would start for any team in the league today with the possible exception of Chicago.

Phifer was moved from outside LB to ILB the same as Vrabel.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2003/09/11/lineup_takes_a_hit/

In 2004 he played less simply because he got old and less effective.

Frankly, Johnson showed some quickness for the first time in years in 2004 and deserved some playing time.

I guess I'm saying with the draft and F.A. I agree we need a run stopping LB.

But we also need the type of skills Bruschi has.

Remember, he's only a 3rd round tweener but he can rush and cover. I don't see how a guy that can't do some of that for us gets much playing time.

 

[jczxohn1]

Phifer was moved from outside LB to ILB the same as Vrabel.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2003/09/11/lineup_takes_a_hit/

In 2004 he played less simply because he got old and less effective.

Frankly, Johnson showed some quickness for the first time in years in 2004 and deserved some playing time.
3rd on the team in tackles with 106 behind Rodney and Tedy.
I guess I'm saying with the draft and F.A. I agree we need a run stopping LB.
Thank you.
But we also need the type of skills Bruschi has.
Absolutely. And we'll have them if we don't let him get beat up.
Remember, he's only a 3rd round tweener but he can rush and cover. I don't see how a guy that can't do some of that for us gets much playing time.

Check out my thread on Kai Parham. Not much on coverage, but 8.5 sacks from an ILB on a 7-5 team ain't bad.

 

[RayClay]

Check out my thread on Kai Parham. Not much on coverage, but 8.5 sacks from an ILB on a 7-5 team ain't bad.

I don't think coverage is essential if Vrabel picks it up, but we certainly expect all our linebackers to rush the passer.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them pick up an OLB and an ILB.

But I've predicted one OL and 2 RBs in the first 6 picks.

And there are needs at WR, DB and backup nose, so it should be an interesting four rounds.

And I believe we now have the 3rd pick in round 5 so maybe we get some value there.

 

[DaBruinz]

You should be a lawyer.

You make your points very well.

However, nothing that you have said matters.

The only thing that matters is the Pats have lots of holes to fill and extra draft picks and possible free agents to fill them.

Roster spots are valuable.

Why should Klecko hold one rather than rookie or F.A. running backs, Line backers defensive backs and, indeed, nose tackles.

This is the one question you consistently avoid.

WOW. You are hilarious RayClay. YOU are the one who avoids everything thrown at him and you point the finger at everyone else in regards to ignoring things. Sorry, but what you have said is worthless and hasn't mattered.

I guess that you were in such a rush to spew your opinion that you missed me saying the following:

Could Klecko be cut this off-season? Yep. But I believ it won't happen until training camp. Also, we could see Klecko pushing Larry Izzo for a special teams slot. Especially since Izzo didn't have a great season last year. Neither did Matt Chatham and I have a feeling that is why Chatham hasn't been re-signed yet.

That answers your "question." Or it should anyways.

Rayclay, unfortunately for you, NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING that you have offered up is anything that any avid fan already knows regarding rosters spots being valuable. Unfortunately for you, Roster spots NOW aren't that valuable. The Patriots are allowed to have 80 players plus whatever NFLE Exemptions they have. Its not until training camp that it matters.

 

[RayClay]

WOW. You are hilarious RayClay. YOU are the one who avoids everything thrown at him and you point the finger at everyone else in regards to ignoring things. Sorry, but what you have said is worthless and hasn't mattered.

I guess that you were in such a rush to spew your opinion that you missed me saying the following:



That answers your "question." Or it should anyways.

Rayclay, unfortunately for you, NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING that you have offered up is anything that any avid fan already knows regarding rosters spots being valuable. Unfortunately for you, Roster spots NOW aren't that valuable. The Patriots are allowed to have 80 players plus whatever NFLE Exemptions they have. Its not until training camp that it matters.

You are correct in that I have not offered anything that the average fan does not know.

I was complementing you on your debating ability and I did note that you considered the possibility that Klecko might be cut.

I myself like Klecko, so I have considered many possible ways we could justify keeping him on the team when we know we need to develop players at many positions.

I'll grant you, I hadn't considered he could somehow replace one of the best special teams players of the last ten years, a 3 time pro bowler.

But I guess when you talk about Klecko, projecting is the name of the game.