DRAFT BGC 2021 Pre-Draft/Patriot-Type Prospect(s) thread

[patsfanfromoversea]

Thank, PFFO,

guys you can call me Sam if you want it's shorter

Bud Dupree had an ACL tear in Nov 2020 so I do not think he is too expensive this offseason. With the cap decreasing and a big risk on the ACL surgery he might be affordable. If we had Bud Dupree and Hightower as ILB in Oct of 2021 and onwards, I think we would be much improved.

Yeah good point i forgot about the ACL injury. Since i don't have much experience, is it really an significant impact on the salary Dupree can demand?
I like the idea of Dupree and HT but would let Dupree play OLB. Our pass rush wasn't good this year, this was also due to bad early down defense but still not really producing sacks or fumbles.

Leonard Williams might have been better at the NJG than the NYJ. Who would have thought someone could look better after they left the JETEs?

I would love to sign Judon or Williams if we have the cap space. Carl Davis has a concussion issue, so he is great value but I do not know if we can depend on him. I would like to sign a DT.

I agree. Davis has to come in cheap to provide depth if he wants to stay here. Yeah NT should the priority here since cowart isn't really the guy for the 0 tech.

I doubt Paye is available at #15, but if he is, then that is my pick without question.

I have that feeling too

I am suggesting a trade down in exchange for another #2 or #3 pick

Dito, but only when the qb's or waddle/smith/pitts/chase/parsons connection is already gone

. After the trade down, we can pick a Defensive End (or a DT if we get a DEnd in FA), a WR, a CB or Free Safety (replace D McC), and then a DT or a LB in the 1st to 3rd round (4 picks with the 1st round trade down)?

I wouldn't mind a DT in the second if we like one of Nixon etc..or a FS/CB to replace our aging guys at that position. If for example Holland or Moehrig or Horn/Stokes fall to us in the second around 45-55 i think the value is there. But this guy better have deep coverage skills and speed since we have Williams Dugger Phillips for SS type of role but no one really who can cover deep if Dmac can't play

And a couple of Offensive Linemen in the 4th?

Yes pls, move on from JE maybe Ferentz who was solid but we need to depth players there at least..i prefer one who can play Center/Guard and a OT/G.

I think the defensive front 7 has to be the priority. Winovich, Uche and Jennings are great to fill out the front 7 if we add some beef up front!!! I love Dugger and Phillips, and the secondary for 2021. After 2021 we lose D McC, Gilmore and possibly Jackson, but we have to address the "beef" upfront this year in my opinion.

Agree big time. Hope we can find a role for Uche and Wino on every down. They look like good dudes. The report about Wino's mouth doesn't scare me. Don't care about that tbh. An ILB who can cover and be athletic would be nice as well tbh.

One last thought - the Pats are trying to convert Rashod Berry to OLB or D End. It will be interesting to see if he blossoms with an offseason and weight training. I love BB's reclamation conversion projects.

Everyone deserves his shot so why not yeah. Don't know much about Berry tbh. If he can play at least a ST/early down backup role or somewhat i would be glad cause he probably doesn't cost much

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Getting 2 dynamic playmakers for our offense with our first two picks, you can count me in for that; then a NT in 3/4 rd. a real fatty to plug the north south run lanes yes pls

Moore reminds me of a sup'd up Deebo Samuel. Probably a bigger impact down field then Samuel. Maybe a little faster, it'll be interesting to see what he puts up at the combine. Shanahan thought Deebo was perfect for the motion-reverse, RB with the ball in his hands type role. I think someone will feel the same about Moore but he's a little more explosive with a well-rounded game. Again he can hurt you in all directions, east/west, north/south and stretch the field all different ways. He's your X factor, special weapon you develop. Him and Waddle on the same field might be a little redundant but if you have a chance you want seriously think about it. Far-fetched I guess but both can play a little Slot/Z so you could have them on the field at the same time without a problem. Pats have one of the slowest WR corps in the league. Bringing in two 4.3 - 4.4 guys that can do a little of everything like them would instantly change that.

I know you like the idk how to describe them, i mean the DT who can stop the run but move better against horizontal stretch plays more but if you have a big NT who can plug the north south you need less ressources for that and can focus with the other guys to defend the edge if that logic makes sense, do you know what i mean bc my english ain't that great tbh

Definitely, i would say it would be a mistake as for now to select for example barmore in the first. A lot of guys expected him to make a big jump this season after he flashed in in limited snaps 2019. He did not live up to expectations. There are a lot of guys who question his run stop ability, i mean his frame is 6'5 and 310 pounds sth like that and he struggles there and doesn't play the real starter role in Bama. His pass rush is his best trait esp his swim move but doesn't has much other moves, bull rush idk questionable for the next level on tape

Your English is fine. Think of it this way ... It's nice to have that Wilfork or Snacks Harrison type.
1)They're rare though, planet theory-guys that big and can play are just hard to find. Especially at the lower levels. Most of those guys aren't that big naturally, OL too. They put there bodies through hell.
2)Offenses are just making it so they're not even that much of a problem at times. Through the run game, teams will stretch, use misdirection or they'll spread it out and wear them out. They can only play so many snaps as is so now they're stuck on the field getting gassed.
3)Smaller guys like Kenny Clark, Jay Ratfliff can do more and are more versatile. When it's roster building time that plays big with coaches.

That's why guys that can play the run, are functional sound run defenders but can move around to 0/1, 3, 4, are more valuable. Another thing is guys that big, 320+ often bring nothing bring nothing rushing the passer.

Defensive coordinators and GM's are in a tough spot for sure. Also this is one reason why I want Wilfork in the HOF. He was elite at his position, played huge role on championship teams and was extremely durable. Toughest position in the game and he was great every Sunday for a decade. Big Vince and Harrison deserve to be in wearing Pats uni's.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

No worries - I didn't take it that way. Most of the time, I don't know what I'm talking about, anyway, so I appreciate the feedback. Thanks for all your very informative posts - definitely learning a ton.

Herbert's a good comparison - 6'6" / 236lbs - although he listed 237 at UO but weighed 227 at the senior bowl. Interesting read about his experience last year with weight and scouts' reactions: Contextualizing Oregon QB Justin Herbert weighing in at 227 pounds at Senior Bowl.

On an unrelated note, what do you think about QB velocity? It sounds like 55mph might be minimum to be pretty good (just picking the number out of my arse from Quarterback Ball Velocity at NFL Combine 2008-2020 - as the last 4 QBs drafted to win a SB were at least that) - surprised Stidham only got to 53mph, so that makes sense now why Cam went in for the Houston last second hail mary (even with the questionable shoulder).

Yea it's a baseline, threshold thing. 55 seems like the cut-off but I'm not sure how stock I put into it. Again more of a check list.

Like Kirk Cousins, Jimmy G and Brett Rypien had faster times than Mahomes and Flaccid and all have had their arm strength questioned. Im curious how what the setting is, I've never seen it happen before. Also there was a report from some draft guy that Mahones threw for 60mph? Can't remember who, Bruglar or someone I think. I just think it's a little weird. And clearly velocity or w/e they measure it doesn't = how far you can throw the ball. Mahomes wanted to challenge Josh Allen to a throw off over this. Invited Allen down to KC and said he'd need at least 85 yards to beat him. I've seen Mahomes toss it 80 before


Allen's arm is ridiculous though. Easily the hardest passer in the game on a straight line-rope.

I think Lamar Jackson had a <55 too which is surprising. He can really fire it but again who knows how it's measured or how many passes they get. If the prospects are even trying, esp the ones that know they're getting taken early.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

 

[Jim Beankie]

Yea it's a baseline, threshold thing. 55 seems like the cut-off but I'm not sure how stock I put into it. Again more of a check list.

Like Kirk Cousins, Jimmy G and Brett Rypien had faster times than Mahomes and Flaccid and all have had their arm strength questioned. Im curious how what the setting is, I've never seen it happen before. Also there was a report from some draft guy that Mahones threw for 60mph? Can't remember who, Bruglar or someone I think. I just think it's a little weird. And clearly velocity or w/e they measure it doesn't = how far you can throw the ball. Mahomes wanted to challenge Josh Allen to a throw off over this. Invited Allen down to KC and said he'd need at least 85 yards to beat him. I've seen Mahomes toss it 80 before


Allen's arm is ridiculous though. Easily the hardest passer in the game on a straight line-rope.

I think Lamar Jackson had a <55 too which is surprising. He can really fire it but again who knows how it's measured or how many passes they get. If the prospects are even trying, esp the ones that know they're getting taken early.

Yeah I never really thought about it or knew about it until I saw that Lawrence threw 61.x against WF (Allen supposedly threw 66). I'll be paying attention next time for kicks (speaking of which, I didn't bother to look up Lawrence's fastest until I rewatched a video about the theoretical foot speed necessary for 70/80/90yd FGs).

Edit: looks like it's just the fastest speed of the throwing drills to either side of the field, not a let it rip type of exercise like with pitchers. Not dependable, but there is the aspect that they have to be accurate, which could be useful (although DeShawn Watson at 45? C'mon).

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

Moore reminds me of a sup'd up Deebo Samuel. Probably a bigger impact down field then Samuel. Maybe a little faster, it'll be interesting to see what he puts up at the combine. Shanahan thought Deebo was perfect for the motion-reverse, RB with the ball in his hands type role. I think someone will feel the same about Moore but he's a little more explosive with a well-rounded game. Again he can hurt you in all directions, east/west, north/south and stretch the field all different ways. He's your X factor, special weapon you develop. Him and Waddle on the same field might be a little redundant but if you have a chance you want seriously think about it. Far-fetched I guess but both can play a little Slot/Z so you could have them on the field at the same time without a problem. Pats have one of the slowest WR corps in the league. Bringing in two 4.3 - 4.4 guys that can do a little of everything like them would instantly change that.

Yeah exactly why i liked the idea. We have zero deep threats and lack of speed in our offense. Defenses will need to consider different things when we have a guy like waddle or moore. I would be happy if we get one of them and maybe a top slot WR like the other Moore. This would be a good start for a turnaround offensevily. I don't expect one of those guys to be there at 15. Moore is probably there but seems like a reach at 15.

Your English is fine. Think of it this way ... It's nice to have that Wilfork or Snacks Harrison type.
1)They're rare though, planet theory-guys that big and can play are just hard to find. Especially at the lower levels. Most of those guys aren't that big naturally, OL too. They put there bodies through hell.
2)Offenses are just making it so they're not even that much of a problem at times. Through the run game, teams will stretch, use misdirection or they'll spread it out and wear them out. They can only play so many snaps as is so now they're stuck on the field getting gassed.
3)Smaller guys like Kenny Clark, Jay Ratfliff can do more and are more versatile. When it's roster building time that plays big with coaches.

That's why guys that can play the run, are functional sound run defenders but can move around to 0/1, 3, 4, are more valuable. Another thing is guys that big, 320+ often bring nothing bring nothing rushing the passer.

Defensive coordinators and GM's are in a tough spot for sure. Also this is one reason why I want Wilfork in the HOF. He was elite at his position, played huge role on championship teams and was extremely durable. Toughest position in the game and he was great every Sunday for a decade. Big Vince and Harrison deserve to be in wearing Pats uni's.

I can understand your points and it sounds complete logical, but there is a part of me who just thinks we are better with a NT than without one. I have a better feeling seeing a 320 pounds dude there instead of Cowart. It seemed that our run defense was better with Davis the few games for example against baltimore. Also I think when you look at the defense ranks this year in the NFL the good rushing defenses mostly have a big guy upfront to clock the middle or a real penetrator on every down. The Bucs with Vea, Baltimore, the Giants with Tomlinson and Lawrence, Seattle New Orleans Rams have Penetratots at DE/DT. I mean if we get for example an evey down stud at DE and DT, we probably don't need the fatty and can use guy on the other 3 tech for example. But we have no stout Player upfront except from guy against the run and Butler in passing downs, so as long as it is like this the NT fatty is probably healpful..

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Mentioned him in DF months ago. If QB/LB-S in HS. All over the place this year. Stat sheet filler this year. One thing I continued to notice when watching him was his anticipation when attacking the QB or reading his eyes. Or making a play in the back field. Like an animal stalking prey he'll try to hide, get skinny or bait. Timing was really on point this year when he was reading or attacking. Just really keen instincts. Sliced and diced through OL's. Really gets going when he moves. Want to see him get more physical. Develop some techniques to shed. Develop those hands more. Really want to see him run around at the combine.

 

[Mark Morse]

I've been a Ridder guy and think Kolar will be coveted big time. Very athletic big man. Paddy is a Bill special. Just know Bill will like him, Skalski, Bolton. Just not sure how much.

Skalski's illegal hits bother me. I don't think he can help himself. He has been taught to play that way, lead with the crown of his helmet, and therefore the illegal hits. I don't think that can be corrected. I'd stay away from him.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

Not the news I wanted to see.

 

[jmt57]

Yea I think he's gone by round one that looks to be around his value give or take.

It all depends on QB, early. If we're not seeing the value or just don't like the class I'd make a point to trading back up into the first so we have two one's. Or trading back into round two with the thought of using our 3 & 4 for a possible third second.

IOW: Two first or three seconds. We need impact players and have 10+ picks. We can afford and again need the talent.

Again *if* we don't like the QBs and Thuney leaves maybe we try to snag a Pitts or Waddle early and get a Slater, AVT or Davis for inside.

If I'm tasked with reloading this team I'd be pressing for some aggression with the picks. Let me go get the guys you've asked me to scout over the last year.

This is the perfect time for an influx of talent (two top 32 or three top 64 prospects)

Any thoughts? Anyone? Stay patient and let the board fall or come out punching? Again we have 11 picks I believe?

Personally I have been a defender in the past of trading down for an additional pick, or trading out (such as this year's third for next year's second). However the roster composition in those years was drastically different than it is currently.

I would prefer to be aggressive. Fill as many other holes as possible in free agency first, when (as it appears to me) other teams may be shedding contracts and will not be buyers in FA. (On a side note I am not resigned to the idea that Thuney is gone, as many other forum members are. I feel the market is going to be soft, due to the 2021 cap being lower than had been expected one year ago,)

Packaging some combination of the 3rd, three 4ths, one 5th, two 6ths, one 7th (and/or a 2022) in order to end up with "two top 32 or three top 64 prospects"?

Absolutely, go for it.



It really boils down to what QBs are within reach. That's going to be tough if none that we like/are worthy of a #1 are within reach. Then what: use a 2nd on a second-tier guy? Wait another year, while possibly once again being in that no-man's land between missing the playoffs - but at the same time outside of a top five or ten pick?

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Not the news I wanted to see.

Me too. I always want guys like him to declare bc you're more than likely to get better value. I bet Fickell got a core group together and said let's do it one more time. We were that close this year, let's give it another go. They really could have a squad next year. Still an uphill climb looking at the bigger picture but again they'll have a lot of talent and young guys stepping up. Ridder has some stuff he could clean up. If he does he's a lock for a first round pick.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Personally I have been a defender in the past of trading down for an additional pick, or trading out (such as this year's third for next year's second). However the roster composition in those years was drastically different than it is currently.

I would prefer to be aggressive. Fill as many other holes as possible in free agency first, when (as it appears to me) other teams may be shedding contracts and will not be buyers in FA. (On a side note I am not resigned to the idea that Thuney is gone, as many other forum members are. I feel the market is going to be soft, due to the 2021 cap being lower than had been expected one year ago,)

Packaging some combination of the 3rd, three 4ths, one 5th, two 6ths, one 7th (and/or a 2022) in order to end up with "two top 32 or three top 64 prospects"? Absolutely, go for it.


It really boils down to what QBs are within reach. That's going to be tough if none that we like/are worthy of a #1 are within reach. Then what: use a 2nd on a second-tier guy? Wait another year, while possibly once again being in that no-man's land between missing the playoffs - but at the same time outside of a top five or ten pick?

Agreed this feels like a "go get your guys" type year. As opposed to a "let the board fall" type of draft.

So in terms of QB's I'm thinking we're waiting until next year, waiting until late 5th-7th round or trade for a vet. Just not seeing one of the big 4 falling to us (Wilson, Lawrence, Fields or Lance). All will be gone by 10 imo. We'd have to trade up. Trask or Jones round two but I'm personally waiting until round 3 for one or a small trade up in the end of two if we must. After that I'm not sure who realistically we could count on.

2022 will be deeper and possibly as top heavy. Penix, Ridder and Pickett would have been on the list this year with a few others.




Being stuck in a perpetual 6-8 win season is no bueno. You can get lucky and have someone fall but it's always nice to be the first at the buffet once and a while. If we have no QB next year I wouldn't mind a 2-3.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

 

[Guts]

Which QB prospect do my fellow college forum experts see the Patriots realistically drafting?

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

I had been slightly cringing half the time he runs between the tackles, and then it went to a whole new level when I saw his run TD against Ohio State, especially since he does kindof have (not serious at all) previous neck and shoulder injuries. That being said, I hope he has the worst non-injury related combine in history and falls to #15.

Ah, yes, of course. If he falls to 15 and the Patriots take him, then I would be his biggest fan, ha! If the Jets trade up to get him, then I will be the opposite. So, I am a homer, I admit it. I have only see, like, a couple of minutes of his highlights, but his accuracy does not look great, but the throws I saw were made under stress so who knows. I would much rather see Jimmy G back for the Patriots.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Which QB prospect do my fellow college forum experts see the Patriots realistically drafting?

Just talked about this with someone. With Ridder and Strong going back to school I'd wait until round two if we don't plan on trading up. Just not a deep class at all. Big four and not much else. I've been searching for diamonds in the rough but it's tough out there.

2022 QB class looks a lot deeper. I really think we see another great class with 3-4 more top 40 worthy prospects.

 

[Guts]

Just talked about this with someone. With Ridder and Strong going back to school I'd wait until round two if we don't plan on trading up. Just not a deep class at all. Big four and not much else. I've been searching for diamonds in the rough but it's tough out there.

2022 QB class looks a lot deeper. I really think we see another great class with 3-4 more top 40 worthy prospects.

Thanks for the info...what position do you see us drafting in the 1st round? And which player do you have going to us as of now?

 

[DaBruinz]

"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced."

I know that you wanted Ridder to the Patriots..

 

[DaBruinz]

So, according to PFF, Mac Jones is their highest rated QB??

With Ridder going back to school, do you think the Patriots reach for a QB this season or wait for next year with a bridge type guy such as Brissett?